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Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

universiteitleiden.nl

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Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#471
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Guaranteed income (GI) would at least buffer some of the anxiety. I could also see businesses knowing it existed would cut worker hours to part-time. But if part-time plus GI was enough then the worker has the power. This is the biggest advantage I see, and shows why you wouldn't even need a living wage. You need a sufficient amount of money so that if a worker is being abused they can say "fuck it, I quit" and be…

I don't get it... why not raise minimum wages to reflect local cost of living? IE, why tax all of us instead of the businesses not paying enough for their employees?

In that scenario, you’d still need to work. Basic income increases workers’ bargaining power because they can quit without losing their entire income.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#472
post #15

We did a type of UBI experiment in the United States with the universal Covid payments. Low income workers got 80% of the salary. Many chose not to work. Why work 40 hours to make 20% more money than the dole? I’m acquaintances with two local business owners, a roofer and a general contractor, and they told me plainly that they were understaffed because their workers were taking a vacation until the Covid payments en…

It's not basic income if it goes away when you get a job.

A large part of the problem that UBI was envisioned to solve is that means-tested welfare systems can find a steady-state equilibrium as poverty traps (as you noted, if you lose your welfare upon getting a job, the welfare support itself becomes a disincentive to working).

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would they get any more than the status quo? I suspect the extra support may translate to decreased profits for landowners. Tenants would have more time and money to file maintenance issues and represent themselves in the legal system, which would cost landowners. In Ontario it costs $50 and takes a lot of time and energy to file a complaint to the LTB. Tenants would also have more ability to change their situation i…

This sounds like it would quickly devolve into a very socially unstable state. For every legitimate complainant, there’d be a hundred entitled moochies with nothing better to do than work the bureaucracy to their own benefit, entirely at the cost of the few remaining people actually doing any work.

One, why waste $50 on a complaint which won't have any effect?

Two, the bureaucracy actually should help with the real moochies. In Ontario Canada tenant protections are crazy and it can take 6+ months for a landlord to evict a non-paying tenant. The official resolution for landlords is to ask the bureaucracy for help.

(The non-official resolution is promoting ignorance about tenant protection laws, legitimately or illegitimately making use of the "family moving in" loophole, and hopefully not any more.)

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#474
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a job doesn't need doing, why waste a human's labor on it? Though that said, I remember not too long ago a lot of people saying "oh if minimum wage goes over $15 we'll just automate the jobs" and now the McDonalds by my house is offering $23/hr for entry level work and robots are nowhere to be seen.

They are rolling out computer tellers all around my area. If they haven't done it in your area it is coming. There are a few companies working on automated meal makers and they are slowly being rolled out. It is just going a bit slow right now.

I love them.

Still, it seems that even those that clearly are solved problem can be done badly. Recently KFC rolled out here. And their kiosk seem to miss the basic options to customize the meals. Like just removing things. Can't do that with meals... Have list of extra options of stuff possibly not even in the product... Actually they don't even tell anywhere what is in their burgers. But I digress. All other chains including the local one manage to have these options present...

So in the end automation won't always solve everything immediately...

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#475
post #355
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a job doesn't need doing, why waste a human's labor on it? Though that said, I remember not too long ago a lot of people saying "oh if minimum wage goes over $15 we'll just automate the jobs" and now the McDonalds by my house is offering $23/hr for entry level work and robots are nowhere to be seen.

> McDonalds by my house is offering $23/hr for entry level work and robots are nowhere to be seen. Who's pouring the drinks at your McDonalds? Over the past five or so years, the robots have taken that over. McDonalds has never been a stranger to labor savings, although I don't think they use burger conveyors like other chains, they do lots of little things. They've also been putting in two lane ordering all over the…

> Who's pouring the drinks at your McDonalds?

Generally, prior to COVID-19, the customers themselves.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Material things would become scarce again due to the artificially inflated cost of labour. A UBI would be more efficient than the extensive patch-work of policies and regulations that we use today to artificially redistribute income. There would be a lot more work happening on material things, not less - especially when adjusted for productivity. Minimum wage work today is some of the least productive.

> There would be a lot more work happening on material things, not less Who will do all the hard, unpleasant work then? Who will pick strawberries, work retail, or do hard labour, for anything less than a fortune? What substitute to the current "don't starve/end up homeless" incentive structure will motivate people to do these jobs? Productivity improvements aren't universal, they're specific. We've not improved prod…

Who picks strawberries today in high-income countries/locations, where strawberry pickers have all sorts of alternatives available? There's your answer. It tends to cost more, but not much more. And the increased cost is offset to a large extent by improved specialization in those lines of work, and the ensuing productivity.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#477
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if it was paid for by a tax on rental income. 100% tax on everything over the equivalent mortgage payment on the property would be a lovely cap on rent values.

There's not an objective number for that. But if we assume there is, then you are simply guaranteeing that no rentals will exist, because landlords pay higher taxes than a resident mortgagor, and they have overhead.

Only if you ignore the appreciation on the investment asset (eg the house). That's most of the reason to rent out a house - for the future sale of the property. This would just mean landlords would need to buy the maintenance costs until they sell up.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#478
I'd like to believe this is true, but it's both counter-intuitive and counter to my actual lived experience the last couple of years.

I'm not sure how it's going down in other countries, but in Canada we've had an unintentional experiment with this due to the pandemic. Our economic relief package allows people to collect government insurance if they're out of work due to Covid. But unlike traditional employment insurance, everyone gets the same amount, and that amount turns out to be more than you could make working full-time at minimum wage.

Now, full disclosure, I'm unabashedly socialist in my leanings. I want UBI to work. I also don't believe that a person's value should be determined by their output. So I'm the last person to be against Basic Income.

However, we have to look at the results. And the results in Canada are that it's almost impossible to hire enough people to work those entry-level roles anymore:

- In my home city of Sudbury, the school bus companies are now offering a $2k signing bonus plus several dollars above minimum wage to attract drivers. They still can't get enough drivers and we're dealing with rolling daily bus cancellations as a result.

- As a hiring manager myself, I've found that jobs that used to get an abundance of high-quality applicants are now getting almost no qualified applicants at all. We're offering starting wages that are, in many cases, $20k more per year than they were a decade ago, and $10k more than they were 2 years ago. This is in a market where the average household income is well under $50k.

- Unemployment rates are higher than they've been in a long time despite the fact that job vacancies are higher than they've ever been.

Now, we can argue back and forth about whether the above is an acceptable trade-off for all the benefits of UBI. But my experience very much suggests that basic income does indeed reduce people's willingness to work.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#479
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a job doesn't need doing, why waste a human's labor on it? Though that said, I remember not too long ago a lot of people saying "oh if minimum wage goes over $15 we'll just automate the jobs" and now the McDonalds by my house is offering $23/hr for entry level work and robots are nowhere to be seen.

Pandemic driven wage increases haven’t been happening long enough to drive just too much automation yet - supply chains and all that would greatly limit how fast that will roll out. It will be interesting if in 5 years I’d wages stay at current levels how much automation displaces them.

This pandemic is also coupled with a chip supply shortage that will also increase the cost/difficulty of automating for a bit.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are rolling out computer tellers all around my area. If they haven't done it in your area it is coming. There are a few companies working on automated meal makers and they are slowly being rolled out. It is just going a bit slow right now.

>It is just going a bit slow right now. Ahh yes, as the AI marketing department always says, we're 99% of the way there, it's just that the last 1% is the hardest! https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-17/waymo-s-s...

I don't think the comparison to AI is apt since meal making robots do currently function and are in restaurants right now. It is literally just being rolled out slowly.
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