Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work • Hacker News Board

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#61

Post by josephcsible » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #7

Yes it would. Look: we just went through a massive worker shortage caused by overly generous stimulus benefits and rent subsidies. Have we forgotten already? What am I supposed to believe? A microfoundations paper from a field with infamous replication problems on one hand, or, on the other hand, common sense and my own lying eyes? Of course UBI would reduce propensity to work. Only people with an axe to grind can se…

"went through" is an understatement. We're still in the massive worker shortage.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#62

Post by vanviegen » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #31

ozzythecat wrote: post #4

A link to the actual research paper would be helpful. In this experiment, what amount was given to the treatment group that received basic income? How often? How does that amount compare to the cost of living in their city? > ‘It’s sometimes said that people will sit around doing nothing if you give them free money.’ I’m not an academic, so take this with a grain of salt. If my job requires menial labor or involves g…

The more money you have - the less value a marginal dollar has. I think there would be a massive pressure to raise minimum wage. Why would you work for $7.50 an hour and pay $1 in taxes - spending the majority of your day to make ~$50 - that doesn't buy much - and you don't have much time to spend it anyway? When your options are either do that or be homeless and hungry - most people opt for work. But when you have o…

Yes, but not by raising minimum wage (in fact it would no longer be needed given a high enough UBI to make a living), but because employers would voluntarily raise wages, because they now need to compete against not working.

Also, I think many menial jobs could be made a lot more pleasant with only a slight cut in productivity.

Hurray for qualify of life!

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#63

Post by notreallyserio » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

Unfortunately without the paper or details this thread is going to turn in to a shit show of opinions (including my own, doh) and little concrete information. Gotta flag it. It'd be more interesting to see the actual paper and reasoned replies.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#64

Post by golemotron » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

I'm not sure why anyone would think that this would not vary by culture.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#65

Post by bitshiftfaced » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

tda wrote: post #27

ozzythecat wrote: post #4

A link to the actual research paper would be helpful. In this experiment, what amount was given to the treatment group that received basic income? How often? How does that amount compare to the cost of living in their city? > ‘It’s sometimes said that people will sit around doing nothing if you give them free money.’ I’m not an academic, so take this with a grain of salt. If my job requires menial labor or involves g…

> there are plenty of jobs where you absolutely will quit And so what if people refuse to do shitty jobs? Perhaps we as society can do without those jobs. And if we can't, we should value them more

> And so what if people refuse to do shitty jobs?

The "so what" is that basic income doesn't change the ordinal ranking of how much people prefer to do different jobs. Neither does it change people's ability to get those jobs. Better qualified applicants will always have better options. So while basic income might increase the nominal pay of the least preferable jobs, it wouldn't mean you suddenly get to skip over the "shitty jobs" and suddenly get access to the better ones.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#66

Post by nightski » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #16

greatpostman wrote: post #6

Pay me enough to live without working and I will quit my job and work on a moonshot startup/interesting tech all day. Most likely nothing will come of it, but I won’t be working

Is that a typo? You just said you'll be working, then said you won't be working

It's pretty clear to me he meant working on someone else's payroll.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#67

Post by ncallaway » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

ozzythecat wrote: post #4

A link to the actual research paper would be helpful. In this experiment, what amount was given to the treatment group that received basic income? How often? How does that amount compare to the cost of living in their city? > ‘It’s sometimes said that people will sit around doing nothing if you give them free money.’ I’m not an academic, so take this with a grain of salt. If my job requires menial labor or involves g…

“If my job…”

That implies your job currently doesn’t require those things. Does it mean you would continue to do the work you currently do?

I think a better phrasing to the hypothetical might be: “if my current job requires…”. And sure, you would leave that job, but does that mean you wouldn’t work at all?

Or does it mean you might use that free space to learn the skills to do a different job that wouldn’t treat you like such garbage.

It almost sounds like your conclusion is: “such a program would allow workers to reject abusive workplaces, and require management to ensure people didn’t abuse their workers if they would want any workers”. To which I say, don’t threaten me with a good time.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#68

Post by throwawayffffas » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

jopython wrote: post #58

the_real_me wrote: post #5

I strongly suspect that the lion's share of UBI would go directly to landlords or existing property owners.

Why stop at 'Basic income'? Why not 'Basic Housing', 'Basic Food' and others?

The basic idea behind income instead of housing/food is that individuals are better at figuring out their needs than the state.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#69

Post by staticassertion » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

ozzythecat wrote: post #4

A link to the actual research paper would be helpful. In this experiment, what amount was given to the treatment group that received basic income? How often? How does that amount compare to the cost of living in their city? > ‘It’s sometimes said that people will sit around doing nothing if you give them free money.’ I’m not an academic, so take this with a grain of salt. If my job requires menial labor or involves g…

> If my job requires menial labor or involves getting berated by customers (many retail jobs), personally I would absolutely not work.

Maybe that's a good thing. It's insane how people in service industries are treated - like they're less than human. Shifting some power to them and giving the job a little more of an air of dignity or status would probably help a lot.

And the pay would obviously go up. People would be willing to do the job if it means life or death, but not for minimum wage - and that's a good thing.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#70

Post by tremon » Mon, Jan 17, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

ozzythecat wrote: post #4

A link to the actual research paper would be helpful. In this experiment, what amount was given to the treatment group that received basic income? How often? How does that amount compare to the cost of living in their city? > ‘It’s sometimes said that people will sit around doing nothing if you give them free money.’ I’m not an academic, so take this with a grain of salt. If my job requires menial labor or involves g…

So, what you're basically saying is that your spouse had a job that was a net negative for her: compensation for the abuse was not sufficiently priced into her pay grade.

To me, your argument says that UBI will cause a re-evaluation of the income market, where undesirable jobs will have to be priced higher so that employers still can find the employees they need (and the services will have to be priced accordingly). I'm okay with that outcome.

(in this particular case: I suspect that private companies will very quickly add language to their contract that being abusive to their employees will void the contract -- I'm okay with that outcome as well. In the case of government services, that could mean that the person would be required to only interact through an intermediary, like a legal guardian or social worker)