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Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

nakst.gitlab.io

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Re: Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

#271

Post by tekknik »

sedan_baklazhan wrote: post #266
dmitriid wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the exact complexity here There are hundreds of standards spanning thens of thousands of pages. Some of them are obsolete, some of them are not, most of them interact with each other in complex and non-obvious ways. An attempt to measure the scope is here: https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope.... And that's before we get to things like Javascript or WASM. Another measure is the count…

Thanks. It looks like complexity increase deliberately aimed at maintaining market monopoly. I can't rationally believe than tens of thousands of pages of documents are needed to display just a (however complex it is) UI. It's a UI engine, after all, and nothing more.

With file system access, media APIs, and networking, the browser is more comparable to a full fledged operating system than a UI framework.

Re: Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

#272

Post by tekknik »

pshirshov wrote: post #226
cartesius13 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type of comment is getting so old I wonder what can be done about it. Maybe the reason why we don't have "different things" is because users of these so called safe languages are too busy arguing online about how safe their programs are instead of actually writing anything worthwhile. Meanwhile operating systems will continue to be written primarily in C/C++ for the forseeable future

In case you check what I'm doing with my safe language you may be surprised. That's something new and worthwhile. Not an OS unfortunately, I would be happy to work on that but I can't live from that. > Meanwhile operating systems will continue to be written primarily in C/C++ for the forseeable future And we will continue reading about lifes ruined by bugs and people killed by exploits. There is no sustainable future…

> And we will continue reading about lifes ruined by bugs and people killed by exploits. There is no sustainable future with unsafe foundation.

Really? people die because of c++? it’s pretty hard to take the rust crew seriously if this is the point of view.

Re: Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

#273

Post by gk1256 »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #77
gk1256 wrote: post #24

I like the UI, but I'm disappointed to find that the author is using orthodox C++ instead Modern C++

For the kernel, or for the user-mode applications? C++ features aren't very useful for kernels. Presumably the author is more familiar with C and "C with classes" C++ and someone can rewrite the user-mode apps in modern C++ later.

Both. SerenityOS, includeOS, Managarm used Modern C++ for Kernel. For example, Managarm used coroutines and Templates also RAII stuff like lock_guard in it's kernel.

Re: Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

#274

Post by marcellus23 »

nine_k wrote: post #242
swiftcoder wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Features that only work if you have really tight integration ... Programs updating file name when you rename from the file manager ... Even systems like MacOS are going to struggle MacOS has actually had this one in the bag for a couple of decades now (likely due to their really tight integration).

File watching API is a thing on most OSes. It's up to the app to actually use it and offer a nice UI flow around it.

> It's up to the app to actually use it and offer a nice UI flow around it.

No, the OS can provide frameworks that handle it by default, so app devs don’t have to worry. macOS does this.

Re: Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

#275

Post by vidarh »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #258
vidarh wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of file managers is really annoying. I'm currently using Caja, which is a Nautilus fork for MATE, so basically Nautilus frozen in time before they yanked the spatial bit and destroyed a bunch of the rest of the usability too, and it's better but still then hampered by just undoing the latest generations of damage done to it, not trying to do better - it was never great. To start with, I wish all of these wo…

Tried https://gitlab.com/antix-contribs/zzzfm ? edit: This is the maintained fork of a fork of https://ignorantguru.github.io/spacefm/ edit because forgotten: which in turn is a fork of an early version of https://wiki.lxde.org/en/PCManFM and several 'mods' thereof. Anyways. For me it's really usable, even without too much fiddling. Stays out of the way. Doesn't need much RAM and can handle anything I throw at it, wh…

I'll take a look, but SpaceFM seems to suffer massively from exactly the attempt at combining a launcher and file manager and ending up being bad at both that I lamented above... It also doesn't seem to support spatial-ish browsing (at a minimum the ability to remember window locations and icon positions and allowing manually changing them), in which case it's a non-starter for me as a launcher. Maybe it's better as a file manager, but it still feels like ca. 1985 Diskmaster 1.3 in terms of capabilities (which, to be fair, doesn't make it any worse than most Linux desktop file managers; just not better either). It'd take a huge step up in zzzfm to turn SpaceFM into something worthwhile for me.

Re: Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

#276

Post by layer8 »

joshspankit wrote: post #252
layer8 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low-resolution monitors and laptops remain widespread [0], and vector-based UI just doesn't look that good on those (either blurry or misaligned). I'm doubtful that HiDPI will become the mainstream standard anytime soon outside of smartphones and tablets (small screens). Cost increases quadratically with screen resolution as a function of production yield, so low-DPI hardware is likely to remain the cheaper option th…

> vector-based UI just doesn't look that good on those Counterargument: Fonts are vectors, and with sub-pixel hinting they can look pretty good on low-DPI monitors

Right, but e.g. SVG doesn’t support hinting AFAIK. Also, realistically nobody is willing to do the work to add hinting to vector icons. Fonts with good low-res hinting have already gotten rare.

I suspect that we’ll continue to live in a world where the UI is neither optimal for HiDPI nor (any more) for low DPI, while really high DPI (e.g. over 200 DPI on desktop monitors), which would enable going full vector without detriment, will rather remain the exception than becoming the rule.

Re: Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

#278

Post by pshirshov »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #236
pshirshov wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rust is an ugly language that is not fun to use. There is one OS written in it (Redox) and it's progress is very slow Yes, you are right. We need to invest lot more resources into that. And we need languages better than Rust. > It's actually less work to audit C++ code manually to find memory unsafety Nope, you are fundamentally wrong. And every new zeroday shows that you are wrong.

Zero-days only show that someone wasn't willing to put in the effort to audit the C++ code. If they won't do that, how will they put in the effort to write it in Rust?

Nope, you are fundamentally wrong. There are enough papers on this subject, just read it.

Re: Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

#279

Post by pshirshov »

tekknik wrote: post #272
pshirshov wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case you check what I'm doing with my safe language you may be surprised. That's something new and worthwhile. Not an OS unfortunately, I would be happy to work on that but I can't live from that. > Meanwhile operating systems will continue to be written primarily in C/C++ for the forseeable future And we will continue reading about lifes ruined by bugs and people killed by exploits. There is no sustainable future…

> And we will continue reading about lifes ruined by bugs and people killed by exploits. There is no sustainable future with unsafe foundation. Really? people die because of c++? it’s pretty hard to take the rust crew seriously if this is the point of view.

They do. At least some zero-days were used by some state actors to track, detain and kill people.

Also I don't like Rust.

Re: Essence: Desktop operating system built from scratch

#280

Post by BeFlatXIII »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #12

So first off: Very cool. Amazingly polished, and self-hosting! Especially since it looks to be an actually-independent project with POSIX as an optional compat layer. I feel like the features that are unique are mostly in 3 groups: 1. Features that shouldn't be unique to this system. Tabbed windows have occasionally happened on other systems, and probably should become more common, and there's no reason it shouldn't…

> Programs updating file name when you rename from the file manager, or the file manager showing when files are open... might be possible to graft on to other systems, but it'd be a right pain. Even systems like MacOS are going to struggle - the whole OS is under one company that could do cross-functional stuff like that, but any time it touches applications you need external developers to support it and that may or may not work out.

I thought Mac OS apps could and did do just that. Perhaps it's an inconsistent behaviour that depends on the developer implementing it rather than something that comes for free by using Swift UI or Cocoa.

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