Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

blog.stephenwyattbush.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 110 posts

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#81

Post by bryanrasmussen »

the_cramer wrote: post #73
thakoppno wrote: post #44

This reminds me a lot of the advice of John Perry Barlow. 1. Be patient. No matter what. 2. Don’t badmouth: Assign responsibility, not blame. Say nothing of another you wouldn’t say to him. 3. Never assume the motives of others are, to them, less noble than yours are to you. 4. Expand your sense of the possible. 5. Don’t trouble yourself with matters you truly cannot change. 6. Expect no more of anyone than you can d…

Is there any detailed explanation on these points? I only find this exact quoted list in my searches. Seems that the original was also only a list of these points. "Give up blood sport" - Why? Did martial arts for 10 years, helped a lot with some other points in these list, especially the self-awareness and decency (humble-ness?). Or do i misunderstand this point? "Live memorably" - That's straight up a wall tattoo q…

>11. Give up blood sports.

I think he is suggesting not to watch blood sports, that is to say not to spend a lot of time watching a human beat up another human for your enjoyment. Considering that it's Barlow I suppose the time it was written at was one where boxing was more relished as a viewer past-time in the U.S.

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#82

Post by bryanrasmussen »

pronlover723 wrote: post #75
thakoppno wrote: post #44

This reminds me a lot of the advice of John Perry Barlow. 1. Be patient. No matter what. 2. Don’t badmouth: Assign responsibility, not blame. Say nothing of another you wouldn’t say to him. 3. Never assume the motives of others are, to them, less noble than yours are to you. 4. Expand your sense of the possible. 5. Don’t trouble yourself with matters you truly cannot change. 6. Expect no more of anyone than you can d…

> Expect no more of anyone than you can deliver yourself. The problem is I can deliver a lot and others can't so I quite often expect more of them since I expect them to deliver as much as me.

It would be unfair to expect more from others than you can give, it would be reasonable to understand that not everyone can deliver at the same level.

It is required not to be unfair, while it preferable to be reasonable.

You don't need to demand people work at your level, but you do need to demand that they work at a level that they can do if you are working at a higher level.

This all goes back to all the recent posts about lazy people in offices should be allowed to be lazy and unproductive.

Sure - within reason.

on edit: the demand that they work at a level that they can do only pertains when it is a task you care about - like child rearing. If one member of a couple is not able to contribute as much but does not contribute what they can this would create a rightful and detrimental resentment.

on second edit: changed if one couple to if one member of a couple otherwise didn't make much sense.

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#83

Post by Moru »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #82
pronlover723 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expect no more of anyone than you can deliver yourself. The problem is I can deliver a lot and others can't so I quite often expect more of them since I expect them to deliver as much as me.

It would be unfair to expect more from others than you can give, it would be reasonable to understand that not everyone can deliver at the same level. It is required not to be unfair, while it preferable to be reasonable. You don't need to demand people work at your level, but you do need to demand that they work at a level that they can do if you are working at a higher level. This all goes back to all the recent po…

Why is it that someone that delivers 10x units of work calls everyone else lazy when they only deliver x units of work? Some people can deliver more for a while and then burn out, while some people can't or won't do either.

It would be best to realize that not everyone is lazy just because they won't deliver the same ammount of work units as you. We are all different, with different needs and handicaps.

1. Be patient. No matter what.

14. Learn the needs of those around you and respect them.*

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#84

Post by tonyedgecombe »

whatshisface wrote: post #34
ourmandave wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my career, I have had to deal with other senior developers who would throw tantrums whenever I pointed out something problematic about their code. Obviously how and when you point it out matters. Like in the middle of a user demo. "Why does it let me enter Feb 30th?" "Oh, Dave wrote the validation on that. What was your thought process on that one Dave?"

"Future-proofing for the introduction of leap months."

https://www.timeanddate.com/date/february-30.html

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#85

Post by tonyedgecombe »

lkschubert8 wrote: post #23
mkl95 wrote: post #5

I agree with all of it. I find commandment 2 to be the most enlightening one. > You are not your code. Remember that the entire point of a review is to find problems, and problems will be found. Don’t take it personally when one is uncovered. In my career, I have had to deal with other senior developers who would throw tantrums whenever I pointed out something problematic about their code. Over the years, there's som…

I really don't understand the attitude of getting frustrated when people correct mistakes in your code review. I would so much rather have a coworker catch my bug in a cr than have it make it to prod. One is mildly embarrassing (if you tie your ego to your code) the other has an actual impact.

Human nature. Some people will use code review as a stick to beat you with or an opportunity to show how clever they are.

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#86

Post by mellavora »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #81
the_cramer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any detailed explanation on these points? I only find this exact quoted list in my searches. Seems that the original was also only a list of these points. "Give up blood sport" - Why? Did martial arts for 10 years, helped a lot with some other points in these list, especially the self-awareness and decency (humble-ness?). Or do i misunderstand this point? "Live memorably" - That's straight up a wall tattoo q…

>11. Give up blood sports. I think he is suggesting not to watch blood sports, that is to say not to spend a lot of time watching a human beat up another human for your enjoyment. Considering that it's Barlow I suppose the time it was written at was one where boxing was more relished as a viewer past-time in the U.S.

Yes, good thing we are past that and on to "game of thrones" or whatever the current nudity + violence trend is.

Try an experiment-- count how many people you saw killed by other people in the last week across all of the media you "consumed" (include the ones where the camera cut away at the last second)

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#87

Post by Ntrails »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #78
thakoppno wrote: post #44

This reminds me a lot of the advice of John Perry Barlow. 1. Be patient. No matter what. 2. Don’t badmouth: Assign responsibility, not blame. Say nothing of another you wouldn’t say to him. 3. Never assume the motives of others are, to them, less noble than yours are to you. 4. Expand your sense of the possible. 5. Don’t trouble yourself with matters you truly cannot change. 6. Expect no more of anyone than you can d…

In HN formatting you need newline for paragraph lists: 1. Be patient. No matter what. 2. Don’t badmouth: Assign responsibility, not blame. Say nothing of another you wouldn’t say to him. 3. Never assume the motives of others are, to them, less noble than yours are to you. 4. Expand your sense of the possible. 5. Don’t trouble yourself with matters you truly cannot change. 6. Expect no more of anyone than you can deli…

> Avoid the pursuit of happiness. Seek to define your mission and pursue that.

Someone is going to need to explain to me why focussing on being happy is a bad idea. My historic view was "I'd rather chase being content and comfortable" as it's less of a sugary high and more of a stable base. However - I do not think that is what is being said here?

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#88

Post by jseban »

thakoppno wrote: post #44

This reminds me a lot of the advice of John Perry Barlow. 1. Be patient. No matter what. 2. Don’t badmouth: Assign responsibility, not blame. Say nothing of another you wouldn’t say to him. 3. Never assume the motives of others are, to them, less noble than yours are to you. 4. Expand your sense of the possible. 5. Don’t trouble yourself with matters you truly cannot change. 6. Expect no more of anyone than you can d…

I like this list but I wonder when this type of gentleman behaviour is really applicable in today's world. You would probably just be stepped on in the workplace and relationships most of the time, you'd have to look really hard to find other people who are also following this high standard

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#89

Post by bryanrasmussen »

Moru wrote: post #83
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be unfair to expect more from others than you can give, it would be reasonable to understand that not everyone can deliver at the same level. It is required not to be unfair, while it preferable to be reasonable. You don't need to demand people work at your level, but you do need to demand that they work at a level that they can do if you are working at a higher level. This all goes back to all the recent po…

Why is it that someone that delivers 10x units of work calls everyone else lazy when they only deliver x units of work? Some people can deliver more for a while and then burn out, while some people can't or won't do either. It would be best to realize that not everyone is lazy just because they won't deliver the same ammount of work units as you. We are all different, with different needs and handicaps. 1. Be patient…

I'm sorry, is this an attempt to correct my moral failings or am I misreading?

Re: Dad and the ten commandments of egoless programming (2012)

#90

Post by jseban »

mkl95 wrote: post #5

I agree with all of it. I find commandment 2 to be the most enlightening one. > You are not your code. Remember that the entire point of a review is to find problems, and problems will be found. Don’t take it personally when one is uncovered. In my career, I have had to deal with other senior developers who would throw tantrums whenever I pointed out something problematic about their code. Over the years, there's som…

I agree in a way, but also disagree. Programming is probably the only job where you'd expect someone to be completely emotionally detached from your work. Everyone has feelings of pride and accomplishment for work that they have made, and you always need to consider this when you give criticism. It makes a world of difference if you review in a friendly and constructive way, or in a mean and aggressive way. There's no way people can just "not have any feelings" about work that they have put a lot of effort into.
Post reply on HN