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Teaching how to code is broken

neil.computer

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Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#251

Post by oriolid »

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #248
oriolid wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my perspective that's some kind of weird Chinese thing. For a different view, you could for example look at the discussion at https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/120433/why-don-t-p... . It's a long thread, but search for "professional" and you'll find the same by multiple posters. There's also an interesting conflict of interest between students, their parents and music schools.

Just got around to looking at that Stack Exchange thread, and I'm reminded why I dislike that site so much: It's full of PLPs (Pedantic Little People, or you can substitute a different P-word for "people"). And why is it full of PLPs? They get little brownie points for answering, and when you get to certain levels, then you're allowed to do even more ! So they compete with each other and downvote your answer for, wel…

Yes, music.stackexchange is pretty bad. Did you find any of the parts where someone writes that the classical teaching style is for training professional musicians or at least developed in the time when it was?

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#252

Post by epolanski »

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #51
bob1029 wrote: post #17

I have always struggled with how to advise my friends & family on this path of learning. It seems like everyone wants to be a WFH developer these days, but I don't know how to enable them to succeed on that path. "Go build something you want to build!" is something I keep reiterating (as does this article). But most don't seem to be interested in that for whatever reason (presumably because its fucking hard). Maybe I…

I have never met a programmer I respected skill-wise that wouldn't randomly spend a weekend locked in a room solving an esoteric problem they felt they had to solve (for no reason). Over the Christmas holidays everyone at my company writes PoCs or hobby projects, being glad to have some free time away from paid programming in order to enjoy recreational programming. What I'm trying to get at is software engineering i…

You can be a great engineer and not need to do any recreational programming.

The thought that some devs are more respectable skill-wise because they hack in their free time is short sighted.

You literally have 8 hours a day to experiment and try all you want, everyday you have the opportunity to learn, hone your skills and experiment and good companies actually have days dedicated to experimenting.

Obviously you can't get great at this job if you don't bang your head on problems for days, but I fail to see that's a quality of recreational programming.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#253

Post by epolanski »

khendron wrote: post #102
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never met a programmer I respected skill-wise that wouldn't randomly spend a weekend locked in a room solving an esoteric problem they felt they had to solve (for no reason). Over the Christmas holidays everyone at my company writes PoCs or hobby projects, being glad to have some free time away from paid programming in order to enjoy recreational programming. What I'm trying to get at is software engineering i…

When non-tech folks ask me how to learn programming because they want "jump on the money train", I ask them if they ever take the initiative to solve a problem with programming. You don't have to work in tech to do this. For example: Work in an office writing documents and making spreadsheets? Have you ever simplified your job by writing a Word or Excel Macro? Own a smart TV? Have you dug into its features until you…

Jm2c but I'm a great developer (I think) but I'm a terrible tech consumer. I have issues with smartphones most of my peers do not and I hate doing smart things at home.

I would also suggest that it's a matter of having an engineeristis attitude (analyzing problems and finding solutions) more than the topic itself.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#254

Post by Cupertino95014 »

oriolid wrote: post #251
Cupertino95014 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just got around to looking at that Stack Exchange thread, and I'm reminded why I dislike that site so much: It's full of PLPs (Pedantic Little People, or you can substitute a different P-word for "people"). And why is it full of PLPs? They get little brownie points for answering, and when you get to certain levels, then you're allowed to do even more ! So they compete with each other and downvote your answer for, wel…

Yes, music.stackexchange is pretty bad. Did you find any of the parts where someone writes that the classical teaching style is for training professional musicians or at least developed in the time when it was?

Regrettably, my visceral reaction to that site kept me from reading very far.

But yeah, conservatories are definitely that. "You, too, can get an expensive education and then struggle to compete with 200 other kids just like you for the the very few paying gigs in classical music!"

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#255

Post by stopmeifyoucan »

https://java-programming.mooc.fi/

is one of the courses that really made me love programming. It has lots of exercises, good explaining and a nice interface. Its in Java but contra the opinions that "Java is a bad language to start programming" for me it wasnt hard at all considering I was young when I started it.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#256

Post by jodrellblank »

WalterBright wrote: post #250
jodrellblank wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again you're repeating the assertion "if you have expertise you can answer questions", "squares are rectangles", which isn't the point of contention. It's the other way which is in question, "if you can answer questions, does that mean you definitely have expertise?". Is being able to answer questions the same as having expertise? Are there people who CAN answer questions but have no expertise? If so, how many? Refer…

Please read carefully. I never said passing a test is proof of mastery. I said failing the test means no mastery. Putting it in terms of logic, (A implies B) does not mean that ((not A) implies (not B)).

You absolutely did say passing a test is proof of mastery, and you cited lawyers and doctors passing tests as evidence, and you said "there are bad tests, but there are good tests and they work", with emphasis.

I passed German at school, despite being unable to speak German. Anybody who spoke German could have tried to have a conversation with me and see that I couldn't, that would be a good way to judge my supposed skills. Any test which is not that, any test which is a proxy to that, or a way to judge that with less effort, is worse than doing that. Teaching me to answer the questions they were going to ask on German grammar, or recite the sentences they were going to expect me to recite, is even worse.

Of course people with absolutely no skill fail tests more than random, who would question that.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#257

Post by mcs_ »

nitwit005 wrote: post #244
mcs_ wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of the world's work seems to get done by people who don't appear particularly enthused. Interesting! Can you share some sources to get deeper here? Until now, I thought apathy wasn't a sign of productivity.

Consult your own memory? Not being enthused doesn't imply you're totally apathetic. We all do plenty of things we don't enjoy, and aren't interested in, because it needs to get done.

> Most of the world's work seems to get done > Consult your own memory?

For sure, I can use my personal truth to answer my question. Still, vague information, including the entire working population, has been mentioned. I was genuinely interested in seeing the source, nothing else, but thanks.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#258

Post by pixel_tracing »

mewse wrote: post #188
pixel_tracing wrote: post #187

I seriously hate the card game example as I rarely play card games, maybe something more modern as an example?

I suspect that "teach coding by making Battlefield V: Definitive Edition" would likely require marginally more than the nine chapters proposed in the article for a basic card game.

I meant something like calculate your home budget, simple todo list, etc.. Something you might actually even end up using after you finish the chapters.
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