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Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

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Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#141

Post by wl »

Karunamon wrote: post #126
teakettle42 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can see my opinion on this matter isn't a common one on HN. Your opinion isn’t common among anyone other than marketers trying to justify sending spam.

..And people who spend a lot of time fighting actual spam , as in, actual unsolicited junk email, who have to deal with false positives from uninformed users who think the 'report spam' button is the appropriate response to them getting an Amazon email they don't like. I'm disappointed to see that attitude here.

I'm disappointed to see spamming apologia here.

Did I sign up for a mailing list?

Yes - not spam

No - spam.

Creating an account with a company is not signing up for mailing lists unless there's a choice presented. Yeah, you can hide consent in the ToS that nobody reads, but that's not asking for permission.

Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#142

Post by Nextgrid »

Karunamon wrote: post #126
teakettle42 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can see my opinion on this matter isn't a common one on HN. Your opinion isn’t common among anyone other than marketers trying to justify sending spam.

..And people who spend a lot of time fighting actual spam , as in, actual unsolicited junk email, who have to deal with false positives from uninformed users who think the 'report spam' button is the appropriate response to them getting an Amazon email they don't like. I'm disappointed to see that attitude here.

In practice, there is little difference between "junk email" which I assume you mean scams/phishing/pills/viagra/etc adverts and that Amazon email. Both take space in your inbox, may send you a notification and require time and brain power to deal with. Whether the latter example may comply with some jurisdiction's definition of "spam" is irrelevant.

The "mark as spam" button gives users the ability to keep their inbox clean and you shouldn't be faulting them for using it.

Not to mention, even if we agree for a minute that the report spam button should only be used for emails that conform to the legal definition of spam, which law should we be following? The US' definition of spam is much more liberal than the EU GDPR's one for example.

Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#143

Post by Nextgrid »

Karunamon wrote: post #76
SahAssar wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most email I get from services is unsolicited. While I did sign up for the services I did not solicit every newsletter, marketing email, "notification" and so on. For 98% percent of services I use I mainly want my email for one thing: a way to reset my password. Often I need to unsubscribe from each of them individually and then navigate some sort of "notification preferences" interface. Even after that has been done…

Yes you did . When you open a relationship with a company (by signing up to use their services), they are allowed to market to you, send you newsletters, and so forth, until such time as you terminate that relationship. It isn't spam because you don't want it. If you actually don't want it, then click 'unsubscribe' - and if they continue to bother you afterwards (which, FWIW, I've seen a reputable company do a grand…

I'm curious - I see on your profile that you're a DevOps engineer presumably using a lot of online services on a daily basis, so what approach do you use to deal with email that would justify your opinion here?

Do you just let it fill up your inbox and essentially make it unusable as it's saturated with marketing spam? Do you read every single incoming email (if so how do you find time and how do you justify spending that time for this instead of other, more productive/fulfilling endeavors)? Do you have some magical, bulletproof AI that can classify and hide these marketing emails with 100% accuracy? Do you outsource the management of your inbox to someone else and if so how do you justify paying for that?

Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#144

Post by dragonwriter »

Karunamon wrote: post #49
teakettle42 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people use disposable email addresses all the time to avoid paying for our product. From the prospective subscriber’s perspective, that’s your problem to worry about — not theirs. > We don’t sell any data. How should users know that? It’s also not just a matter of selling data — almost all companies will spam your email address, even if you check the box asking them not to.

> almost all companies will spam your email address, even if you check the box asking them not to. I find this very hard to believe. "Spam" has a specific definition; the most important bit of which is that it is unsolicited. Mails landing in your inbox that you'd rather not get, but which are not unsolicited (say, by you signing up for an account and confirming your address), are not spam by definition . "Almost all…

> "Spam" has a specific definition;

The legal definition of spam arose as a distortion of the preexisting concept lobbied for by spammers to allow as much spam as politically possible while allowing politicians to be seen as “doing something” about the spam problem.

Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#145

Post by tomaloner »

Funny thing about that list is that I bet 99% of programmers that use it test for equality, not suffix. Some disposable email systems allow any domain - including subdomains of their own domain. (i.e. @.mailinator.com [1])

If you're using "equals" - it won't catch it.

[1] Tech Evolution of Mailinator - https://youtu.be/BqNfHsZ3QUc?t=3866

Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#146

Post by majewsky »

Karunamon wrote: post #126
teakettle42 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can see my opinion on this matter isn't a common one on HN. Your opinion isn’t common among anyone other than marketers trying to justify sending spam.

..And people who spend a lot of time fighting actual spam , as in, actual unsolicited junk email, who have to deal with false positives from uninformed users who think the 'report spam' button is the appropriate response to them getting an Amazon email they don't like. I'm disappointed to see that attitude here.

Ok, let's use "spam email" for what you consider spam and add a new category for unsolicited trash from known senders, e.g. "trash email".

Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#147

Post by majewsky »

barnabee wrote: post #131
Karunamon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you did . When you open a relationship with a company (by signing up to use their services), they are allowed to market to you, send you newsletters, and so forth, until such time as you terminate that relationship. It isn't spam because you don't want it. If you actually don't want it, then click 'unsubscribe' - and if they continue to bother you afterwards (which, FWIW, I've seen a reputable company do a grand…

Nope. In the UK and EU (and probably other places!) you can’t send someone email marketing unless they explicitly opt in (i.e. no pre-ticked boxes either) [1]. Also, it is presicely spam because I don’t want it, whether you have a right or even obligation to send it or not. [1] https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...

Well, technically you can, because the government agencies doing the enforcement are systematically understaffed.

Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#148

Post by Karunamon »

Nextgrid wrote: post #143
Karunamon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you did . When you open a relationship with a company (by signing up to use their services), they are allowed to market to you, send you newsletters, and so forth, until such time as you terminate that relationship. It isn't spam because you don't want it. If you actually don't want it, then click 'unsubscribe' - and if they continue to bother you afterwards (which, FWIW, I've seen a reputable company do a grand…

I'm curious - I see on your profile that you're a DevOps engineer presumably using a lot of online services on a daily basis, so what approach do you use to deal with email that would justify your opinion here? Do you just let it fill up your inbox and essentially make it unusable as it's saturated with marketing spam? Do you read every single incoming email (if so how do you find time and how do you justify spending…

>so what approach do you use to deal with email that would justify your opinion here?

When I get email I don't want from a company I have an account with, I scroll to the bottom and click 'unsubscribe'. I then don't get anymore of those kinds of emails.

What I absolutely do not do is throw a hissy fit and click 'report spam' (which not fucks up my own bayes classifiers and makes false positives more likely, but sends harmful false reports to antispam orgs).

Seems to work quite well. Certainly well enough that I can't comprehend the level of snark and vitriol received here.

Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#149

Post by Nullabillity »

Karunamon wrote: post #126
teakettle42 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can see my opinion on this matter isn't a common one on HN. Your opinion isn’t common among anyone other than marketers trying to justify sending spam.

..And people who spend a lot of time fighting actual spam , as in, actual unsolicited junk email, who have to deal with false positives from uninformed users who think the 'report spam' button is the appropriate response to them getting an Amazon email they don't like. I'm disappointed to see that attitude here.

It is the exact correct button for that kind of shit, and it sounds like you need to reevaluate what it is you're trying to optimize for.

Re: Mozilla's Firefox Relay to be added to disposable-email-domains blacklist

#150

Post by teakettle42 »

Karunamon wrote: post #126
teakettle42 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can see my opinion on this matter isn't a common one on HN. Your opinion isn’t common among anyone other than marketers trying to justify sending spam.

..And people who spend a lot of time fighting actual spam , as in, actual unsolicited junk email, who have to deal with false positives from uninformed users who think the 'report spam' button is the appropriate response to them getting an Amazon email they don't like. I'm disappointed to see that attitude here.

> actual spam, as in, actual unsolicited junk email

solicit, v 1. To ask from with earnestness

unsolicited, adj 1. not asked for

Your justifications hinge entirely on a very unusual and rather tortured definition of “solicit”.

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