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Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

#41

Post by jeffreyrogers »

Graffur wrote: post #32
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #29

There is nothing special about software development in terms of a career. You learn it like you learn anything else. Some people have a natural aptitude, some people will never get it, most are in the middle: capable of becoming competent developers. I mean, 90% of development these days is knowing what parts to glue together and where to get the parts. You're converting business rules into code: for the most part, i…

> it's really not that hard I think this is a myth that people who learned a long time ago and learned over a long time say. It is hard - there's a lot of complexity involved. It does a disservice to other software engineers.

I remember helping a friend with his intro to CS homework in college. It was fizz-buzz type programming and extremely simple, but he could not understand what the code was doing or how to change it to make it work. And this friend is very smart and successful in his career.

Things that seem easy to people who already know how to program or who have the mind for it are very confusing to people just learning.

Re: Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

#42

Post by c7DJTLrn »

cosmodisk wrote: post #37

I usually say this: if you'll start today, spend 1-2h every evening and weekend over the next couple of years+ read hundreds upon hundreds of websites, documentation entries,etc, then you should start grasping it. For 99% of people mentioning 'years' is enough to kill any ideas of doing it, because most just want a quick solution.

So you just give intentionally demotivating advice? It doesn't take years to learn software development and you don't need to scan hundreds of pages of documentation. If we're talking about it as a profession, sure maybe, but that wasn't implied in the OP. "Building" software can be as simple as writing Hello World or a calculator.

Re: Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

#43

Post by adjkant »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #41
Graffur wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's really not that hard I think this is a myth that people who learned a long time ago and learned over a long time say. It is hard - there's a lot of complexity involved. It does a disservice to other software engineers.

I remember helping a friend with his intro to CS homework in college. It was fizz-buzz type programming and extremely simple, but he could not understand what the code was doing or how to change it to make it work. And this friend is very smart and successful in his career. Things that seem easy to people who already know how to program or who have the mind for it are very confusing to people just learning.

And for others it goes quite quickly! There is no doubt that programming can be helped with a natural aptitude and that it won't make sense to everyone no matter how smart they are, but that is true of many fields.

I'd also argue it's often a teaching problem. I'd highly recommend this essay that goes into the flaws in particular with introductory CS education:

https://felleisen.org/matthias/Thoughts/Developing_Developer...

Re: Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

#44

Post by aeonflux »

ahelwer wrote: post #40

A few friends have asked me about this, idly wondering whether they should join a bootcamp or whatever. I enjoy teaching, and am quite good at it, so I give them an offer: a free 1-2 hour 1:1 introductory programming lesson. About half the people take me up on it and none of them have yet subsequently applied to a programming bootcamp. One person maintained a baseline interest and I occasionally give them more free l…

What subfield would that be?

Re: Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

#46

Post by pythops »

lnsru wrote: post #21
pythops wrote: post #13

Start for the real basics and learn CS from first principles ! https://github.com/geohot/fromthetransistor

This is more electrical engineering than computer science course. And it’s timing is absolutely not realistic for a starter. 12 weeks is a bad joke for this. Half week for uart design. Lol. Beginner has to know what uart is in very first place. For 52 weeks it might be ok if you are senior level.

Well, the best way is always the hardest. If you want to a quick way, you can go to bootcamps, 3 months, and you'll be okay to go. But for a long term investment, this is the best course ever to learn the CS.

Re: Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

#47

Post by ahelwer »

aeonflux wrote: post #44
ahelwer wrote: post #40

A few friends have asked me about this, idly wondering whether they should join a bootcamp or whatever. I enjoy teaching, and am quite good at it, so I give them an offer: a free 1-2 hour 1:1 introductory programming lesson. About half the people take me up on it and none of them have yet subsequently applied to a programming bootcamp. One person maintained a baseline interest and I occasionally give them more free l…

What subfield would that be?

Formal methods and distributed systems. I'm also fairly knowledgeable about quantum computing.

Re: Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

#48

Post by rvr_ »

Software is hard, but unlike many other professions, you can do useful work at almost any level of the learning curve. Even for those of us with many years of experience, there's always something new. You can use an argument within these lines. Remember them it's a journey. One can start with bare resources. It's not capital intensive and there's no need to put themselves in debt.

Re: Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

#49

Post by issa »

I spent a lot of time thinking about this over the years and I have a few key thoughts:

The most important base-level skill seems to be the ability to hold the concept of what I call "signal flow" (and others would call "state") in your head. The two jobs I've done in my life that I've done for money AND for fun are programmer and recording studio engineer. They are essentially identical. Hear me out:

When someone sings into a microphone, the signal travels through a cable, into a pre-amplifer, then an equalizer that cuts out the low end, then a compressor to limit the dynamic range, maybe you add some reverb and some delay. You need to be able to understand what is happening to the signal at every stage. For example, if you run the signal into a compressor BEFORE you cut out the low end frequencies with an equalizer, the results will be dramatically different. If you add delay (an echo) to the signal and THEN add reverb, it will sound different and you probably won't get the natural sound you are looking for.

When I was training audio engineers, if they didn't QUICKLY grasp this concept, they were most likely going to struggle.

Software is pretty much the same. You need to know what each function is doing, the state of each variable as you step through, etc. If someone without any programming experience has trouble following the value of X:

X = 10 Y = 15 X = 5 X = Y+X X = ?

Then they will struggle learning.

More recently, software has become a question of having a wide range of shallow knowledge, and the ability to google really well. But I think the fundamentals are the same.

Re: Ask HN: What do you say to someone who wants to get into software development?

#50

Post by cosmodisk »

c7DJTLrn wrote: post #42
cosmodisk wrote: post #37

I usually say this: if you'll start today, spend 1-2h every evening and weekend over the next couple of years+ read hundreds upon hundreds of websites, documentation entries,etc, then you should start grasping it. For 99% of people mentioning 'years' is enough to kill any ideas of doing it, because most just want a quick solution.

So you just give intentionally demotivating advice? It doesn't take years to learn software development and you don't need to scan hundreds of pages of documentation. If we're talking about it as a profession, sure maybe, but that wasn't implied in the OP. "Building" software can be as simple as writing Hello World or a calculator.

My answer is usually to those who are thinking of getting into the field,not just write some 'hello world' apps. I don't demotivate, I do give a fairly realistic picture: it does require a lot commitment and lots of hair pulling moments to get somewhere. The problem is that those who really want to do it,they never ask, they just dive into it. The ones who ask, are usually who will never do it or have an unrealistically simplistic picture of what it entails. I used to offer this route to non technical colleagues,who,if wanted, could have doubled or tripled their salaries in just a few years. I was offering all the support they'd need,should they decide to do it, including the company changing their roles if they see the motivation. Nobody ever took it. Not a single person.
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