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Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

amc.sas.upenn.edu

121–130 of 134 posts

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#121
post #115

I hate identity politics as much as the next guy, but I think a lot of Fukuyama's takes here are pretty bad. He repeatedly paints massive groups with a large and indiscriminate brush. For instance: "The right seeks to cut off immigration altogether and would like to send immigrants back to their countries of origin." Uh, what? The United States is a nation of immigrants and we all know it. I don't think anyone wants…

> For example, defining Democrats by "defund the police", or defining Republicans as the party of "white nationalism". This is a false equivalence. On the one hand, the Democratic party has unequivocally rejected “defund the police” on multiple occasions. First in the 2020 primary by electing a presidential candidate who explicitly rejected the slogan, and continues to do so as president; then by excluding it from it…

While I disagree at some level with most of what you've written, I think the most egregious point is that nothing that you wrote is linked to the conclusion you draw.

1) There are reasons other than white nationalism for political parties to play politics with voting laws. It is overwhelmingly likely that these changes target Democrat voters rather than minority voters.

2) If this is the best a party of white nationalists can manage - marginal changes to try and tip tight elections in their favour - then the situation seems to seem very much under control from the perspective of all the non-white non-nationalists. It is hardly a defining policy.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#122
post #5

Identity politics is well on its way to turning the USA into a failed state

Divisive identity politics could well be one symptom of the breakdown of the USA, but I doubt that it's the reason.

It pretty clear that in the last forty years, politics has primarily focused on the needs of the wealthy[0], to the detriment of the needs of the general populous. This has led to a massive discontentment in the populace that - in my opinion - was the driving factor in the election of Donald Trump. (The Democrats were able to bring their populist wing under control, otherwise it could well have been Bernie.)

So, all in all I think it is the misguided attempts by the elites to somehow divert the plebes from the realization that they have been screwed over that's breaking the USA. On the right this is done using white-grievance politics and xenophobic propaganda, on the left using identity politics.

What they use in the end doesn't matter, as long as they manage to divide the plebs.

Unfortunately, the spiral of escalating language has now reached a point where the 'other' side is so railed up that legitimate elections are being questioned. I hope the elites are smart enough to turn it around before they totally wreck the country.

[0] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#123
post #30

Now I realise you have to produce many words to fill a book, but a more succinct argument would be appreciated, and this seems to be all over the place, with pat explanations of recent history, which is probably much more complex in reality. And is the argument really about 'identity', or just 'status'? IMHO, economics is flawed at it's core, because people do not just value material wealth, but relative, social weal…

Ego rents are very much a part of modern economic theory. As are any range of cognitive biases (see behavioral economics), institutional frictions, spatial constraints, and on and on. It's a wide tent. Some say too wide.

Yes even with these additions, I don't think the central problem is addressed, which is that economics still treats people as 'rational actors', albeit flawed, interested in gaining wealth.

But, and I see it all the time, people will in many cases, not only not work together for mutual gain, but will actually choose actions that harm their own material wellbeing, if they harm their close rivals more.

People care about their relative status, not absolute wealth.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#124
post #121
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, defining Democrats by "defund the police", or defining Republicans as the party of "white nationalism". This is a false equivalence. On the one hand, the Democratic party has unequivocally rejected “defund the police” on multiple occasions. First in the 2020 primary by electing a presidential candidate who explicitly rejected the slogan, and continues to do so as president; then by excluding it from it…

While I disagree at some level with most of what you've written, I think the most egregious point is that nothing that you wrote is linked to the conclusion you draw. 1) There are reasons other than white nationalism for political parties to play politics with voting laws. It is overwhelmingly likely that these changes target Democrat voters rather than minority voters. 2) If this is the best a party of white nationa…

> 1) There are reasons other than white nationalism for political parties to play politics with voting laws.

I referred to a very specific piece of legislation for a reason. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 is, to quote Wikipedia, “a landmark piece of federal legislation in the United States that prohibits racial discrimination in voting”. It is the direct result of Martin Luther King Jr marching against Jim Crow laws in the south. Supporting it was a no-brainer Republican policy as recently as 2006 (the last time all its provisions were re-authorized).

In other words, the VRA is no ordinary law: it is the quintessential anti-Jim Crow law. When the modern Republican party took the unprecedented step of removing these protections against Jim Crow laws, they effectively made themselves the champions of Jim Crow - the champions of white nationalism.

> It is overwhelmingly likely that these changes target Democrat voters rather than minority voters.

No, it absolutely is not. Civil rights organization like the NAACP and SPLC systematically challenge these laws on the grounds that they are disguised racial discrimination - and they win. The problem is that the legal process takes too long and enforcement is easily dodged by the states. This is why the VRA was crucial: it required federal pre-approval of voting laws, and allowed proper enforcement against states that persisted in racial discrimination.

This is not only well documented legislative fact, it is actually tought in History class. It is mind-boggling to me that it is even a point of debate. The only excuse for your argument is ignorance.

> 2) If this is the best a party of white nationalists can manage - marginal changes to try and tip tight elections in their favour - then the situation seems to seem very much under control from the perspective of all the non-white non-nationalists. It is hardly a defining policy.

Large scale voter suppression is a serious matter. MLK and countless other Americans shed blood marching to secure the VRA, and now their work is undone. That is a grave threat to our democratic institutions. I am optimistic that the white nationalists will lose, but it will be a difficult and uncertain fight ahead.

But you tell me. Assuming you vote for Republicans: what do you believe they stand for beyond white nationalism? And how do you reconcile your support with their efforts to undo legislation that Martin Luther King Jr fought for?

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key behind understanding the guy is he's always defending imperialism and the current power structure as the correct, natural and inevitable course of events, with no other alternative possible. He's been playing that same song for decades. You already know what his position on everything is and how he'll argue for it. The real amazing thing is how much he's committed to it

Isn't this an adhominem attack on the person's character without refuting the points? I agree with OP that some of the points are ridiculous, but why assassinate character like this?

> > he's always defending imperialism and the current power structure as the correct, natural and inevitable course of events, with no other alternative possible.

> Isn't this an adhominem attack on the person's character without refuting the points?

No - why do you say that?

PP is attacking Fukuyama _based on his ideas_ - that imperialism is the natural course of events, the best for everyone, and inevitable. It is perfectly legitimate to critique someone's ideas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_History_and_the_Las...

That is the reverse of ad hominem. A ad hominem argument would go, "Fukuyama is wrong because he's from Harvard/Asian/etc", and of course those arguments are false.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#126
post #115

I hate identity politics as much as the next guy, but I think a lot of Fukuyama's takes here are pretty bad. He repeatedly paints massive groups with a large and indiscriminate brush. For instance: "The right seeks to cut off immigration altogether and would like to send immigrants back to their countries of origin." Uh, what? The United States is a nation of immigrants and we all know it. I don't think anyone wants…

> For example, defining Democrats by "defund the police", or defining Republicans as the party of "white nationalism". This is a false equivalence. On the one hand, the Democratic party has unequivocally rejected “defund the police” on multiple occasions. First in the 2020 primary by electing a presidential candidate who explicitly rejected the slogan, and continues to do so as president; then by excluding it from it…

[deleted]

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#127
post #115

I hate identity politics as much as the next guy, but I think a lot of Fukuyama's takes here are pretty bad. He repeatedly paints massive groups with a large and indiscriminate brush. For instance: "The right seeks to cut off immigration altogether and would like to send immigrants back to their countries of origin." Uh, what? The United States is a nation of immigrants and we all know it. I don't think anyone wants…

> For example, defining Democrats by "defund the police", or defining Republicans as the party of "white nationalism". This is a false equivalence. On the one hand, the Democratic party has unequivocally rejected “defund the police” on multiple occasions. First in the 2020 primary by electing a presidential candidate who explicitly rejected the slogan, and continues to do so as president; then by excluding it from it…

[deleted]

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#128
post #59

His point at the end about the impossibility of the word "un-Danish" is at least thirty years out of date, if not 80. "Udansk" is fairly frequently used, across the political spectrum, usually denoting some variation of intolerance, unwillingness to compromise, and narrowmindedness which are implied almost universally to be antithetical to Danishness. Even on the right, the phrases "Danish culture" and "Danish values…

Yeah, saying "Udansk" is all too common. Though is strikes me as a word almost exclusively used by politicans - maybe a tactic that some spindoctor picked up from US media at some point?

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this an adhominem attack on the person's character without refuting the points? I agree with OP that some of the points are ridiculous, but why assassinate character like this?

> > he's always defending imperialism and the current power structure as the correct, natural and inevitable course of events, with no other alternative possible. > Isn't this an adhominem attack on the person's character without refuting the points? No - why do you say that? PP is attacking Fukuyama _based on his ideas_ - that imperialism is the natural course of events, the best for everyone, and inevitable. It is…

Perhaps I see it differently than you.

> It is perfectly legitimate to critique someone's ideas.

I totally agree.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#130
post #124
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I disagree at some level with most of what you've written, I think the most egregious point is that nothing that you wrote is linked to the conclusion you draw. 1) There are reasons other than white nationalism for political parties to play politics with voting laws. It is overwhelmingly likely that these changes target Democrat voters rather than minority voters. 2) If this is the best a party of white nationa…

> 1) There are reasons other than white nationalism for political parties to play politics with voting laws. I referred to a very specific piece of legislation for a reason. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 is, to quote Wikipedia, “a landmark piece of federal legislation in the United States that prohibits racial discrimination in voting ”. It is the direct result of Martin Luther King Jr marching against Jim Crow laws…

> But you tell me. Assuming you vote for Republicans: what do you believe they stand for beyond white nationalism? And how do you reconcile your support with their efforts to undo legislation that Martin Luther King Jr fought for?

I'm not American and there is even a fair chance I wouldn't vote for the Republicans if I were, I'd likely be trying to split the right wing vote for the libertarian party to force the Republicans to adopt more acceptable policies.

Political parties are large and complex beasts. If you want some aspects of the Republicans that could define them, probably the obvious one is a heavy focus on individual identity over group identity when assigning credit/blame. They also tend to adopt more aggressive policies of individual liberty, and are more oriented towards rules and order.

> And how do you reconcile your support with their efforts to undo legislation that Martin Luther King Jr fought for?

They think it is likely to hurt their chances in an election. That is why I'm telling you it isn't white nationalism; white nationalists don't get especially excited about the details around how close elections get decided. If it was white nationalism you'd be leading with policies where they wanted to expel non-white people. Which you aren't so I assume they don't have any that you think would stand up to scrutiny.

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