Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship • Hacker News Board

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#161

Post by danssig » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 10:32 AM UTC

temphn wrote: post #87

krschultz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other option for people who don't like it: leave the country. You wouldn't know it listening to most people complaining but unemployment insurance was not something implemented in 2008, it goes back to the 1930s. That should have been plenty of warning for you to find a place with a tax rate and entitlement system to your liking. Sorry, there aren't a lot of options in the 1st world without taxes and entitlments, but…

Singapore? Hong Kong? Your underlying assumption is that the US can increase taxes and regulations indefinitely without consequence. But capital and talent are more mobile than ever before. Record numbers have been renouncing citizenship in recent years (Google it). Most likely when the current flow of expatriation becomes a flood, though, there will suddenly be restrictions imposed on exit: an asset tax, a waiting p…

Your facts are a misrepresentation. There have been many american expats for a long time. We usually keep our citizenship because there was no need to give it up. Having to file taxes to the US every year is annoying but not enough to renounce citizenship over.

Lately, however, the US has been getting more and more intrusive in my foreign life. Why do I owe any taxes on money I earn in a foreign land? I'm not using any US resources (don't give me any nonsense about navy seals coming to my rescue if I get kidnapped), I'm not working there, I have no property there, nothing.

Now they want to know how much money is in my bank account! I have a hard time finding banks that will do business with me because I happen to be in a "tax haven" country so doing business with americans means you have to have infra to send information about my banking activity back to the US. The cost of rejecting a handful of american customers is minuscule compared to the cost of setting up such infra.

I don't want to give up my citizenship but I'm not putting up with this mafia-style protection racket anymore.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#162

Post by danssig » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 10:41 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #136

temphn wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have yet to show that the increase in voluntary expatriation is correlated with high earnings, much less caused by them. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1983238,00.htm... While a small number of Americans hand in their passports each year for political reasons, the new surge in permanent expatriations is mainly because of taxes. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/us/26expat.html Amid mounting frust…

Hardly conclusive. From the same WSJ article: Other attorneys who specialize in helping the Americans expatriate say the reason is that the IRS is cracking down on overseas bank accounts and offshore income. There is a population of U.S. citizens who live overseas and may never have paid U.S. taxes on their non-U.S. earnings and non-U.S. accounts. Now that the IRS is enforcing the rules, with criminal penalties for s…

>There is a population of U.S. citizens who live overseas and may never have paid U.S. taxes on their non-U.S. earnings and non-U.S. accounts.

This really pisses me off. If I don't live in the US why on earth would I pay taxes on my non-US earnings? No other first world country expects this and no country has a right to it. Am I slave who's very soul belongs to the US government?

>Now that the IRS is enforcing the rules, with criminal penalties for scofflaws

Scofflaws? If I ignore laws of countries I don't live in I'm a scofflaw?

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#163

Post by danssig » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 10:47 AM UTC

talmand wrote: post #8

Then, if you become successful, you can be labeled as one of the hated rich and they'll put you out of business with crushing regulation and taxes. Excellent.

"Crushing regulation and taxes" generally hits small businesses hardest.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#164

Post by danssig » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 10:50 AM UTC

hexis wrote: post #101

nitrogen wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose you're working on a product that is time sensitive. In other words, if you don't start full time on it three months ago, you'll be too late to market. Also suppose that you see this opportunity while you're a student. Finally, consider that skilled programmers tend to be concentrated in high cost of living areas. In that case, you never had the opportunity to save up and you probably need to be where the pote…

"Suppose you're working on a product that is time sensitive." Pick another project. There's a lot of money to be made on the internet.

I'll tell you what: since it's so easy, why don't you make a list of 100% guaranteed ways to make money on the internet. Lord knows I'd rather be in my own business than working for a huge corporation.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#165

Post by Gormo » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 1:38 PM UTC

danssig wrote: post #161

temphn wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore? Hong Kong? Your underlying assumption is that the US can increase taxes and regulations indefinitely without consequence. But capital and talent are more mobile than ever before. Record numbers have been renouncing citizenship in recent years (Google it). Most likely when the current flow of expatriation becomes a flood, though, there will suddenly be restrictions imposed on exit: an asset tax, a waiting p…

Your facts are a misrepresentation. There have been many american expats for a long time. We usually keep our citizenship because there was no need to give it up. Having to file taxes to the US every year is annoying but not enough to renounce citizenship over. Lately, however, the US has been getting more and more intrusive in my foreign life. Why do I owe any taxes on money I earn in a foreign land? I'm not using a…

Why do banks in other countries have to obey US disclosure laws at all? If US authorities make demands of them, why can't they just say no?

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#166

Post by danssig » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 1:46 PM UTC

Gormo wrote: post #165

danssig wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your facts are a misrepresentation. There have been many american expats for a long time. We usually keep our citizenship because there was no need to give it up. Having to file taxes to the US every year is annoying but not enough to renounce citizenship over. Lately, however, the US has been getting more and more intrusive in my foreign life. Why do I owe any taxes on money I earn in a foreign land? I'm not using a…

Why do banks in other countries have to obey US disclosure laws at all? If US authorities make demands of them, why can't they just say no?

Well, the country could just say no but once the country has said yes (probably after some very one-sided negotiation) the bank no longer has a choice. That is the case here: have American customers? Then you have to comply with the US rules.

The US is making a lot of trouble in banking. For example, if two non-US parties trade some US-based stock, then the whole thing has to be reported to the US specially independent from the normal reporting they have to do. I wish the US were a small enough player that everyone could just ignore this kind of nonsense but that's not the case at the moment.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#167

Post by talmand » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 2:29 PM UTC

danssig wrote: post #163

talmand wrote: post #8

Then, if you become successful, you can be labeled as one of the hated rich and they'll put you out of business with crushing regulation and taxes. Excellent.

"Crushing regulation and taxes" generally hits small businesses hardest.

According to descriptions of what "rich" seems to mean to most, small businesses are the largest part of that heavily disliked group.

In the recent English riots the prevailing thought seemed to be that simply owning a business meant you were rich.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#168

Post by anigbrowl » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 5:20 PM UTC

danssig wrote: post #162

anigbrowl wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly conclusive. From the same WSJ article: Other attorneys who specialize in helping the Americans expatriate say the reason is that the IRS is cracking down on overseas bank accounts and offshore income. There is a population of U.S. citizens who live overseas and may never have paid U.S. taxes on their non-U.S. earnings and non-U.S. accounts. Now that the IRS is enforcing the rules, with criminal penalties for s…

>There is a population of U.S. citizens who live overseas and may never have paid U.S. taxes on their non-U.S. earnings and non-U.S. accounts. This really pisses me off. If I don't live in the US why on earth would I pay taxes on my non-US earnings? No other first world country expects this and no country has a right to it. Am I slave who's very soul belongs to the US government? >Now that the IRS is enforcing the ru…

Instead of downvoting me, I suggest you take your complaint up with the writer of the Wall Street Journal article. I quoted that extract to demonstrate that there were contradictory points of view about the reason for the recent uptick in renunciation of US citizenship besides the one offered in the grandparent post.

As for why US citizens living abroad pay US income taxes, that has been around since the time of the civil war, when a temporary income tax was imposed for reasons that I hope are obvious. It seems to have escaped your attention that I said I don't support it, and even linked to a paper in a tax law journal arguing that it makes poor economic sense. On this topic, you should take your complaint up with the US government.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#169

Post by tibbon » Tue, Sep 13, 2011, 5:29 PM UTC

JayWilmont wrote: post #29

tibbon wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange question, but couldn't you always do this? From my understanding, unemployment insurance only required that you take no/low salary from a company. You were still able to receive money from capital-gains/investments. Start a consulting firm/startup, pay yourself a $1 salary with stock options. Don't exercise these options for a long time (when you stop UE). I read the UE stuff time and time again in Massachuse…

Remember unemployment insurance rules vary depending on the state. New York State for example asks if you are employed, not if you are drawing a salary.

True. Massachusetts asks your salary. If you're working a job that pays less than your UE benefits, then they make up the difference.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#170

Post by danssig » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 7:19 AM UTC

talmand wrote: post #167

danssig wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Crushing regulation and taxes" generally hits small businesses hardest.

According to descriptions of what "rich" seems to mean to most, small businesses are the largest part of that heavily disliked group. In the recent English riots the prevailing thought seemed to be that simply owning a business meant you were rich.

It's hard to imagine this being the case. When I think of "has way too much money" I think of big corporate fat cats. Never small business owners. I don't know anyone personally who sees small business as hated rich either.

Perhaps this is some kind of cultural thing in the UK?