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Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

amc.sas.upenn.edu

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Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#41

Post by zozbot234 »

guerrilla wrote: post #37
zozbot234 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When a group is disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society due to, for example, racism or sexism, they tend to have disproportionately worse economic outcomes Well, it depends. A lot of real-world identity politics amounts to malicious, overt marginalization of "market-dominant" or "model" minorities who, despite their marginalized status, have better educational and econo…

> overt marginalization of "market-dominant" or "model" minorities who, despite their marginalized status, have better educational and economic outcomes than the relevant majority group. Because they aren't "disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society due to, for example, racism or sexism." Being a minority does not automatically make one marginalized and one does not need to…

> Because they aren't "disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society"

Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means. My point is precisely that real-world marginalization can be an outcome of identity politics, especially when minorities differ in their overall attitudes towards education or economic development.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#42

Post by rvense »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #18
rvense wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He gives a summary of 20th century politics that doesn't include fascism, and makes the Cold War sound like it was a battle between "small government" and "worker's rights". He says outright that nationalism on the political right is a "redefinition". This is so bizarre I can only assume I'm reading it wrong.

I am not clear on your complaints here, maybe you are reading it wrong? To pick up on one thing: do you feel that the political right has, rather, sustained a consistent nationalistic bent for the past century? You dont feel like it has changed recently, and rather, perhaps, believing it has changed is misguided?

Nationalism is a defining characteristic of political conservatism.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#43

Post by guerrilla »

zozbot234 wrote: post #41
guerrilla wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> overt marginalization of "market-dominant" or "model" minorities who, despite their marginalized status, have better educational and economic outcomes than the relevant majority group. Because they aren't "disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society due to, for example, racism or sexism." Being a minority does not automatically make one marginalized and one does not need to…

> Because they aren't "disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society" Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means. My point is precisely that real-world marginalization can be an outcome of identity politics, especially when minorities differ in their overall attitudes towards education or economic development.

> Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means

Then we can't agree on that premise. I don't think they are even remotely marginalized to the same extent. If they were, they would suffer the same consequences. To be clear, I'm not saying that anti-Asian racism doesn't exist; obviously it does, it's just not on the level that anti-Black racism is on.

> My point is precisely that real-world marginalization can be an outcome of identity politics

Sure, it can, Ethiopia is repeatedly a great example of that. Asians in America aren't. None of those that Fukuyama listed are either.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#44

Post by zozbot234 »

guerrilla wrote: post #43
zozbot234 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because they aren't "disproportionately excluded from the education, economic and other systems of society" Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means. My point is precisely that real-world marginalization can be an outcome of identity politics, especially when minorities differ in their overall attitudes towards education or economic development.

> Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means Then we can't agree on that premise. I don't think they are even remotely marginalized to the same extent. If they were, they would suffer the same consequences. To be clear, I'm not saying that anti-Asian racism doesn't exist; obviously it does, it's just not on the level that anti-Black racism is on. > My point is precisely that real-world margina…

> To be clear, I'm not saying that anti-Asian racism doesn't exist; obviously it does, it's just not on the level that anti-Black racism is on.

I never said that anti-Asian attitudes are "on the level" that anti-Black ones are. What I'm saying is that such things should point us towards a far more nuanced understanding of how "identity politics" might play out in the real world.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#45

Post by guerrilla »

zozbot234 wrote: post #44
guerrilla wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course they are, this is pretty much what marginalization means Then we can't agree on that premise. I don't think they are even remotely marginalized to the same extent. If they were, they would suffer the same consequences. To be clear, I'm not saying that anti-Asian racism doesn't exist; obviously it does, it's just not on the level that anti-Black racism is on. > My point is precisely that real-world margina…

> To be clear, I'm not saying that anti-Asian racism doesn't exist; obviously it does, it's just not on the level that anti-Black racism is on. I never said that anti-Asian attitudes are "on the level" that anti-Black ones are. What I'm saying is that such things should point us towards a far more nuanced understanding of how "identity politics" might play out in the real world.

More nuanced than what?

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#46

Post by UIUC_06 »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #38
UIUC_06 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> recent and old anthro research "Anthropology" is a field that so thoroughly discredited itself by political advocacy that no one to the right of Trotsky could possibly take it seriously. These are the people who trashed Napoleon Chagnon, who actually lived with the Yanomani, for the audacity of reporting what they were like, which wasn't what they like to hear. From the NYT obituary: Dr. Chagnon dismissed as “Marxi…

If you’d like to see the writing on Chagnon that Graeber promoted, which I’m not certain your summary really captures - http://dwhume.com/darkness_documents/0246.htm

You really want to push an article with garbage phrases like this?

"By far the greater part is the story, sufficiently notorious in its own right, of the well-known anthropologist Napoleon Chagnon: of his work among the Yanomami people of Venezuela and his fame among the science tribe of America."

"during the late 1960s and early 1970s Chagnon had served as a jungle advance man and blood collector."

"Chagnon inscribed these indelible identification numbers on people's arms--barely 20 years after World War II."

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#47

Post by was8309 »

uejfiweun wrote: post #27

I hate identity politics as much as the next guy, but I think a lot of Fukuyama's takes here are pretty bad. He repeatedly paints massive groups with a large and indiscriminate brush. For instance: "The right seeks to cut off immigration altogether and would like to send immigrants back to their countries of origin." Uh, what? The United States is a nation of immigrants and we all know it. I don't think anyone wants…

per 'defund the police' being extreme, here's a story. living near Pitt in 1981. iiuc, Reagan defunding forced the local psych hospital to empty out. So now we had a bunch of patients with psychiatric disabilities living homeless in the neighborhood, and my understanding is that they needed to stay close by the hospital in order to get daily meds. Of course this resulted in more police involvement, and though I don't have the proof, the common sense reaction would be to allocate more officers to the zone. I'll bet the officers in the street weren't thrilled.

end result : mental health funding decreased and police funding increased.

So my understanding of 'defund the police' is to reverse what happened in that and many similar situations

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#48

Post by drewcoo »

uejfiweun wrote: post #27

I hate identity politics as much as the next guy, but I think a lot of Fukuyama's takes here are pretty bad. He repeatedly paints massive groups with a large and indiscriminate brush. For instance: "The right seeks to cut off immigration altogether and would like to send immigrants back to their countries of origin." Uh, what? The United States is a nation of immigrants and we all know it. I don't think anyone wants…

Fukuyama isn't worried about facts. Factually, Obama and now Biden have deported far more people than Trump or Bush. Obama was even known as "the deporter in chief."

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/state-and-local-...

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#49

Post by netcan »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #21
netcan wrote: post #7

Quoted post unavailable.

What, in your mind, was 20th century politics defined by? Edit: like I get the economism here feels reductive to you, I think, but I just think it would at least be equally absurd to say they were predominantly defined by identity issues. As is shown in the essay, our concept of identity is intractable from globalism and modernity. So I'm just not sure what the obvious issue is here. If we admit that it is nuanced, t…

Indian independance, irish independance and the formation of most current nation states...on the basis of national identity. Fascism, Nazism, the kmer rouge. Even communism, in its own terms, was about class identity.

The US civil rights movement and the creation of its modern political dichotomy. Islamism. Arabism & the Arab league. Apartheid. Post-apartheid SA. Post colonialism. The Rwanda genocide. Yugoslavia's demise.

Re: Francis Fukuyama – Against Identity Politics

#50

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

This is a moderate essay with an unfortunate title. What it is not is a typical right-wing rant. I would hope people could tell these apart.

It presents a middle path and almost plaintively asks people to follow it. I fear this is wishful thinking, but at least he's trying to be conciliatory and constructive.

What surprised me was his reference to Snow Crash. I did not expect that in an essay by Francis Fukuyama.

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