All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future... • Hacker News Board

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#71

Post by mkr-hn » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 1:54 AM UTC

magicalist wrote: post #55

eykanal wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the case, why are so many tech bloggers treating this as though it's the "OS that will defeat the iPad"? If everyone thought as you do, then they would realize that comparing this to a shipped product which has already been evaluated by the public is a pretty poor comparison, and Gruber's argument stands pretty strong.

> If that's the case, why are so many tech bloggers treating this as though it's the "OS that will defeat the iPad"? Seriously? Because tech bloggers are morons that want to sensationalize their story but can't seem to come up with a new way to do it. You might as well ask why every vaguely scandalous political story is labeled "something-gate." Spoiler: it's probably not because the comparison to watergate is in any…

And it's cross-platform. Apple gets the same kind of coverage.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#72

Post by X-Istence » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 1:57 AM UTC

varunsrin wrote: post #48

ethank wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, "the question is: which approach is right?" assumes that either company COULD change their approach. Should they? Don't conflate what is reality with what could be. If that was the case there wouldn't be an iPad (or X-Box, or Metro).

Microsoft does not launch unfinished Xboxes (hardware + software product). Apple does not launch unfinished iPads (hardware + software product) Microsoft launches unfinished Windows builds (software). Apple launches unfinished Lion builds (software). The question is flawed in that it assumes that they companies have different release methodologies for the same class of products. Both Microsoft & Apple are making simi…

What Gruber is arguing about, and I would tend to agree is that Microsoft has "released" Windows 8 on top of a tablet that is nothing like what a tablet would ultimately be. It contains a full Core i5, with fan to keep it cool and all.

Would it have been better to wait till manufacturers were ready with their ARM based tablets that run Windows 8 rather than something PC like that runs Windows 8? Especially since based on the current demo device we will have no idea what Windows 8 will be like on actual low power hardware...

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#73

Post by X-Istence » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 1:58 AM UTC

recoiledsnake wrote: post #61

ethank wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN), but I think that he does understand what you claim he doesn't. The point of his polemic is not that Microsoft is fundamentally different than Apple in approach and execution. Anyone can see that plain as day. It's not obfuscated in the least. The question is: which approach is right? Removing for a minute the preconceptions of "that's just how t…

>Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN) Is that why many of Gruber's posts are consistently upvoted on HN? Out of all that was displayed during the keynote, he got only one thing to dwell on. The demo tablet given out has a fan and gets hot? That is like criticizing Windows because Dell makes a pink laptop. There's going to be immense choice. And this going to put pressure on Intel an…

This same argument was used for Android tablets, how well has that turned out so far?

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#74

Post by ethank » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 2:14 AM UTC

recoiledsnake wrote: post #61

ethank wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN), but I think that he does understand what you claim he doesn't. The point of his polemic is not that Microsoft is fundamentally different than Apple in approach and execution. Anyone can see that plain as day. It's not obfuscated in the least. The question is: which approach is right? Removing for a minute the preconceptions of "that's just how t…

>Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN) Is that why many of Gruber's posts are consistently upvoted on HN? Out of all that was displayed during the keynote, he got only one thing to dwell on. The demo tablet given out has a fan and gets hot? That is like criticizing Windows because Dell makes a pink laptop. There's going to be immense choice. And this going to put pressure on Intel an…

Why was Microsoft in such a hurry as to release a preview of an OS before the ecosystem was capable of handling it?

Explain how putting this out with substandard hardware does anything to bolster confidence from either users or developers? Why not wait until an Arm chassis was ready?

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#75

Post by X-Istence » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 2:29 AM UTC

georgemcbay wrote: post #36

panicslowly wrote: post #7

The Metro UI is great, but the hardware on the market isn't exactly stellar (compared to iOS/Android offerings). If I were Microsoft, I'd be worried about something similar happening in the tablet market. How are they going to stand out in non-traditional PC markets?

Hopefully they are working with ASUS to build something like the Transformer, but running Windows 8 and with an x86 chip. Because that is absolutely 100% what I want. I love my current Asus Transformer -- the convertible notebook/tablet form factor is the perfect system for doing the stuff tablets are good at while also being usable for doing actual writing and content-creation type tasks. The missing piece in the cu…

Windows 8 has been ported to ARM, so it doesn't even need to be x86.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#76

Post by blinkingled » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 2:31 AM UTC

ethank wrote: post #74

recoiledsnake wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN) Is that why many of Gruber's posts are consistently upvoted on HN? Out of all that was displayed during the keynote, he got only one thing to dwell on. The demo tablet given out has a fan and gets hot? That is like criticizing Windows because Dell makes a pink laptop. There's going to be immense choice. And this going to put pressure on Intel an…

Why was Microsoft in such a hurry as to release a preview of an OS before the ecosystem was capable of handling it? Explain how putting this out with substandard hardware does anything to bolster confidence from either users or developers? Why not wait until an Arm chassis was ready?

Because unless Microsoft shows what they can do with their OS - OEMs will not have a clue to build new hardware capable of complementing the software. Different ball game where tight secrecy doesn't really work - OEMs needs access to what MSFT is doing, developers need it and there are a crazy number of both of them and they need ample time and clear cut communication from Microsoft in order to make and bake their plans.

Besides no one is explaining why is demoing a preview OS bad? Because it is out of style? It's not like Microsoft is pushing the preview down the throats of average Joes and Janes.

I actually like Microsoft's no surprises approach. It bolsters the confidence of their OEM and Developer demographic. That's how they have been doing it since long time. You would have to be too unrealistic a Microsoft Developer to say "oh that Samsung tablet had a fan. I am just going to ignore Windows 8" - it doesn't make any sense, it's a developer unit and for that it is pretty nice - you can develop and debug on it!

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#77

Post by Lewisham » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 2:32 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #54

technoslut wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to intentionally play the middle but I can see both sides of this. Lion can be considered a finished product but it feels like the OS is in the beginning of a metamorphosis and it may be vastly different 5-10 years from now.

Honestly haven't used Lion myself but this seems to be a consensus view. "Incoherent mess" does not seem to be the consensus view. That said, I hereby reserve the right to come back in a few days under the unlikely circumstance that my machine blows up and (further unlikely circumstance) that I replace with a mac and tell you that it turns out I also find it to be an "incoherent mess".

Honestly haven't used Lion myself but this seems to be a consensus view.

Don't sing its praises until you've tried it. Knocking my opinion based on your derivation of "consensus" is pretty dishonest.

Launchpad/Mission Control are simply poor implementations of some sort of iOS-type experience that simply make no sense. Full screen mode on most apps is worse than Snow Leopard, the odd movement into a new screen as a sort-of context switch is plain odd. Restoring windows on Preview/Quicktime leads to you simply having a mess of windows appear as soon as you open the apps.

It is a half-way house between Mac OS X of old and iOS, and it shows. I don't often agree with Gizmodo, but their review seems most like my views on it. I wouldn't have spent the $30 if I didn't want to like it.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#78

Post by morisy » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 2:38 AM UTC

mycroftiv wrote: post #10

>What strikes me about Thurrott’s tweet is that the two companies have attracted the writers they deserve. Me? I’d be appalled if Apple were to unveil something in the half- (if that) finished state of Windows 8 for tablets. I enjoy writing about what’s real. I can't believe that Gruber can write such self-satisfied tripe without more self-awareness. His quote is more true than he realizes - the incredible smugness o…

That exact passage stood out to me for the precise opposite reason: For every Gruber-esque writer on Apple's side, there are hundreds of MacRumors, InfiniteLoops, etc., that predict, usually badly, future Apple visages. Good, cogent writing is the exception, not the rule, no matter the subject.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#79

Post by blinkingled » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 2:38 AM UTC

X-Istence wrote: post #72

varunsrin wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft does not launch unfinished Xboxes (hardware + software product). Apple does not launch unfinished iPads (hardware + software product) Microsoft launches unfinished Windows builds (software). Apple launches unfinished Lion builds (software). The question is flawed in that it assumes that they companies have different release methodologies for the same class of products. Both Microsoft & Apple are making simi…

What Gruber is arguing about, and I would tend to agree is that Microsoft has "released" Windows 8 on top of a tablet that is nothing like what a tablet would ultimately be. It contains a full Core i5, with fan to keep it cool and all. Would it have been better to wait till manufacturers were ready with their ARM based tablets that run Windows 8 rather than something PC like that runs Windows 8? Especially since base…

It's a developer unit! Compare it if you like to the Mac Pro Apple released to get developers started on OS X86 - they used CPUs in that were never used in the actual released version of Mac Pro.

Its job is to let developers use the functionality of the OS, and develop/debug right on the device. It's not there to run coolest or use specific SOC. For Metro Apps it won't matter what SOC you are running underneath. And I am sure ARM brethren of Samsung tablets will come out sooner or later for porting Win32 apps.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#80

Post by Steko » Wed, Sep 14, 2011, 2:46 AM UTC

varunsrin wrote: post #22

> "I simply wish to direct your attention at how utterly different the two companies are." >"Me? I’d be appalled if Apple were to unveil something in the half- (if that) finished state of Windows 8 for tablets. I enjoy writing about what’s real" What Gruber claims to understand, but actually doesn't, is that the Microsoft ecosystem is a very different beast than the Apple ecosystem. Microsoft, unlike Apple, does not…

Apple makes money chiefly by selling devices to the public. Joe needs a phone, walks into an Apple store plays with an iPhone and buys one. Suprise works here because of the burst of publicity and the ease of purchase. This approach is based on limited supply and tries to maximize dollars per unit.

Microsoft's Windows platform makes money chiefly by selling OS licenses to hardware companies like Dell. Every month these companies write 8+ digit checks to Microsoft. The multi-year roadmaps involved make surprise a disadvantage. This approach seeks to maximize $100 licenses.

Sony's Playstation platform makes money chiefly by taking a cut from other developers. Sony convinces someone like EA to develop for their system and makes $5 every time one of us buys an EA game for $50. The development lead time involved means the announcement has to be at least a year in advance.

Amazon's Kindle platform also makes money chiefly by taxing the ecosystem (in this case e-books). However the lead time to produce an e-book is minimal and so surprise again works.

Nintendo puts another twist it -- they make money chiefly by selling blockbuster first party titles on their own platform.

Google makes money chiefly by selling ads. A company or ad agency writes Google a check with an expected level of visibility. This approach seeks to maximize units and industry growth (even competitors). Facebook I guess we can expeect the same approach, trying to get aunt millie with the 10 year old cel phone onto a smartphone.

Maybe I should say something about phone hardware vendors like HTC who sell phones to carriers complete with rebranding, etc.