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The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

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Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#171

Post by ralgozino »

selimthegrim wrote: post #122
forinti wrote: post #10

I'm a native Portuguese and Spanish speaker. The phonetics of Portuguese are much richer than Spanish, even though they are so similar in vocabulary. I think this is the reason you can speak Spanish so much faster (even if you are fluent in both). But I think the most difficult r is the Spanish r in perro. I like the way Chileans kind of sneak a zh in there: perzho. Personal anecdote: once my mother (who speaks Spani…

>I like the way Chileans kind of sneak a zh in there: perzho. Do Argentines do this too or is that with just ll?

It depends on what part of Argentina, Buenos Aires and Rioplatense accent use a strong rolled R, meanwhile in Cuyo region (center-western: Mendoza, San Juan, San Luis and La Rioja) it's pretty common a very different sound for the R, that's closer to an English 'sh' sound. I believe it is being lost though and younger people use the rolled R but not as strong as in Buenos Aires. There a lot more differences with the Rioplatense accent, like with the Y and LL. Accent from Mendoza and San Juan are much closer to Chile's than to Buenos Aires accent.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#172

Post by SamBam »

School-Cotton wrote: post #82
SamBam wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repeating "butter" is actually a great way to teach people how to make the rolled R [r].

By "rolled r", do you mean the trill? The trill and flap are different sounds in some languages (for example, Spanish "perro" (dog) has the trill whereas "pero" (but) has the flap). The /t/ in Am.E. "butter" is the flap.

I mean exactly the sound that is referred to as the "rolling R" or "[r]" in the original article.

The flap is [ɾ].

In any case, as the sister comment says, the point is that in order to learn the rolling r (consciously, as an older person) you have to notice the flap, and repeated flapping can transfer into the rolled r. So, yes, you learn the flap first, but few people start out saying "I wish I could flap my rs," instead they're looking to learn how to roll them.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#173

Post by School-Cotton »

SwiftyBug wrote: post #99
soneca wrote: post #22

My name is Rodrigo and I work remotely for an american company with only American teammates. When I say my name I pronounce the way Americans would pronounce it to simplify communication, but it always feels a little phony. Like I am making up a nickname that’s actually not mine to a new group. Not anything that bothers me, just a curiosity of global remote work and our R.

To me names are simply not translatable. A name is not a word, is a sound we associate with our selves. The Americanized form of "Rodrigo" is not the sound you associate with your self I'd too feel weird to introduce myself trying to emulate an accent.

Have you ever lived in a country that spoke a language other than your native one?

You very, very quickly get used to introducing yourself in a way that people from that country can pronounce. It’s really not a big deal.

> A name is not a word, is a sound we associate with our selves.

All words are just sounds we arbitrarily associate with various concepts; names are not special in this sense. (In fact, in some languages, the word for “name” and “noun” are the same).

Like every other word, names follow the phonological and phonotactic rules of the language they’re part of. There’s a reason English has John and Spanish has Juan.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#174

Post by School-Cotton »

Karto wrote: post #61
soneca wrote: post #22

My name is Rodrigo and I work remotely for an american company with only American teammates. When I say my name I pronounce the way Americans would pronounce it to simplify communication, but it always feels a little phony. Like I am making up a nickname that’s actually not mine to a new group. Not anything that bothers me, just a curiosity of global remote work and our R.

I had a similar experience in spite of not needing any R, living and working in several English speaking countries. My name is Mathias, and the variety of ways English speakers called me was a proper issue, in the sense that I sometimes didn't even recognize that somebody was talking about me, or calling me across a workshop. When I started introducing myself as "Matt", all became easy. Never had this issue with pret…

Which two gutturals? “Javier” only has one sound I’d call “guttural” — the velar fricative (i.e. the Spanish J sound).

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#175

Post by bradrn »

tombh wrote: post #167
bradrn wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting question! Not a linguist, but I’d be inclined to the view that the word boundary itself is phonemic: these can be transcribed (for me) as /ma͡is poː/ vs /ma͡i spoː/. Supporting this analysis is the fact that the [p] vs [pʰ] distinction then can be derived using the same phonological rules as usual; also, for me, the /a͡i/ in /ma͡is/ is slightly shorter than that in /ma͡i/. But, as I said, exactly pinning…

Thanks for the cool IPA! I think that seems totally reasonable that the word boundary itself is phonetic, as such it could be intentionally accentuated (as a longer than usual pause) to clarify. Oh wait but isn't [pʰ] word-initial only anyway? So in a way it has an implicit word boundary. BTW does your accent not aspirate "pour"? So you don't do /ma͡is pʰoː/?

> I think that seems totally reasonable that the word boundary itself is phonetic, as such it could be intentionally accentuated

That’s not what I mean. By ‘the word boundary is phonemic’ [not ‘phonetic’!], I mean that the word boundary can be transcribed on the phonemic level, and is thus allowed to influence the phonetic realisation of other phonemes.

> BTW does your accent not aspirate "pour"? So you don't do /ma͡is pʰoː/?

No, it does: [mɑ͡ispʰoː].

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#176

Post by Karto »

School-Cotton wrote: post #174
Karto wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience in spite of not needing any R, living and working in several English speaking countries. My name is Mathias, and the variety of ways English speakers called me was a proper issue, in the sense that I sometimes didn't even recognize that somebody was talking about me, or calling me across a workshop. When I started introducing myself as "Matt", all became easy. Never had this issue with pret…

Which two gutturals? “Javier” only has one sound I’d call “guttural” — the velar fricative (i.e. the Spanish J sound).

My wrong, I meant the two different non-english-like consonants.
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