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All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

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Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#41

Post by varunsrin »

ethank wrote: post #33
varunsrin wrote: post #22

> "I simply wish to direct your attention at how utterly different the two companies are." >"Me? I’d be appalled if Apple were to unveil something in the half- (if that) finished state of Windows 8 for tablets. I enjoy writing about what’s real" What Gruber claims to understand, but actually doesn't, is that the Microsoft ecosystem is a very different beast than the Apple ecosystem. Microsoft, unlike Apple, does not…

Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN), but I think that he does understand what you claim he doesn't. The point of his polemic is not that Microsoft is fundamentally different than Apple in approach and execution. Anyone can see that plain as day. It's not obfuscated in the least. The question is: which approach is right? Removing for a minute the preconceptions of "that's just how t…

> "The question is: which approach is right?"

The problem is asking that question. It is irrelevant when they products are fundamentally different. Its like comparing, well, apples & oranges. You cannot compare the methodology of a hardware launch (iPad) to a software launch (Windows 8).

You do not launch major pieces software without a beta / dev preview release. No one does. Even Apple doesn't do it - Lion, iCloud & iOS5 were released in 'unfinished states', which Gruber claims to abhor. So instead of comparing above mentioned software launches (in an unfinished state) to Windows 8 (also in an unfinished state), Gruber chooses hardware.

Compare the Xbox & iPad release schedules, and iOS5/Lion & Windows 8 schedules. I doubt you'll find that the hardware ships with a public beta. And I doubt that you'll find that software ships without a beta.Gruber is twisting examples to suit his arguments, and this is fundamentally flawed logic.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#42

Post by revscat »

mycroftiv wrote: post #10

>What strikes me about Thurrott’s tweet is that the two companies have attracted the writers they deserve. Me? I’d be appalled if Apple were to unveil something in the half- (if that) finished state of Windows 8 for tablets. I enjoy writing about what’s real. I can't believe that Gruber can write such self-satisfied tripe without more self-awareness. His quote is more true than he realizes - the incredible smugness o…

Smugness is confidence displayed by someone we don't like. Every word you wrote could be equally applied were you to hold up a mirror.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#43

Post by ethank »

varunsrin wrote: post #41
ethank wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to defend Gruber here (since for some reason he is unpopular on HN), but I think that he does understand what you claim he doesn't. The point of his polemic is not that Microsoft is fundamentally different than Apple in approach and execution. Anyone can see that plain as day. It's not obfuscated in the least. The question is: which approach is right? Removing for a minute the preconceptions of "that's just how t…

> "The question is: which approach is right?" The problem is asking that question. It is irrelevant when they products are fundamentally different. Its like comparing, well, apples & oranges. You cannot compare the methodology of a hardware launch (iPad) to a software launch (Windows 8). You do not launch major pieces software without a beta / dev preview release. No one does. Even Apple doesn't do it - Lion, iCloud…

Again, "the question is: which approach is right?" assumes that either company COULD change their approach. Should they?

Don't conflate what is reality with what could be. If that was the case there wouldn't be an iPad (or X-Box, or Metro).

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#44

Post by varunsrin »

chaostheory wrote: post #38
varunsrin wrote: post #22

> "I simply wish to direct your attention at how utterly different the two companies are." >"Me? I’d be appalled if Apple were to unveil something in the half- (if that) finished state of Windows 8 for tablets. I enjoy writing about what’s real" What Gruber claims to understand, but actually doesn't, is that the Microsoft ecosystem is a very different beast than the Apple ecosystem. Microsoft, unlike Apple, does not…

> Microsoft, unlike Apple, does not control the entire vertical stack. They don't really have direct control over hardware or retail distribution (some notable exceptions - Xbox, Microsoft stores etc., but you know what I mean - it's nothing like Apple's top-down approach) I think most people in our field, including Gruber, are well aware that MS doesn't have full control of the stack. It's good to note, but at the e…

The argument is not about which product is better, its about which release methodology results in a better product, which I claim is a pointless argument when you are shipping different products.

Yes, customers will judge them equally when the product ships - but the developer release isn't for customers. Its for developers and partners

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#45

Post by latch »

This is a common problem with Microsoft. They announce products well before they are available for purchase and end up disappointing everybody (including themselves).

One of the Zunes (maybe ZuneHD? maybe the 1st one), was announced at a specific price and they made it clear this was X dollars cheaper than an iPod. Problem is, it wasn't shipping for another year..guess what Apple did?

They are in a hard position though (of their own doing)....they are far behind [the tablet market], so they need to do something. Unfortunately, all they can do is show something that'll be available later on.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#46

Post by eykanal »

varunsrin wrote: post #44
chaostheory wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft, unlike Apple, does not control the entire vertical stack. They don't really have direct control over hardware or retail distribution (some notable exceptions - Xbox, Microsoft stores etc., but you know what I mean - it's nothing like Apple's top-down approach) I think most people in our field, including Gruber, are well aware that MS doesn't have full control of the stack. It's good to note, but at the e…

The argument is not about which product is better, its about which release methodology results in a better product, which I claim is a pointless argument when you are shipping different products. Yes, customers will judge them equally when the product ships - but the developer release isn't for customers. Its for developers and partners

If that's the case, why are so many tech bloggers treating this as though it's the "OS that will defeat the iPad"? If everyone thought as you do, then they would realize that comparing this to a shipped product which has already been evaluated by the public is a pretty poor comparison, and Gruber's argument stands pretty strong.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#48

Post by varunsrin »

ethank wrote: post #43
varunsrin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The question is: which approach is right?" The problem is asking that question. It is irrelevant when they products are fundamentally different. Its like comparing, well, apples & oranges. You cannot compare the methodology of a hardware launch (iPad) to a software launch (Windows 8). You do not launch major pieces software without a beta / dev preview release. No one does. Even Apple doesn't do it - Lion, iCloud…

Again, "the question is: which approach is right?" assumes that either company COULD change their approach. Should they? Don't conflate what is reality with what could be. If that was the case there wouldn't be an iPad (or X-Box, or Metro).

Microsoft does not launch unfinished Xboxes (hardware + software product). Apple does not launch unfinished iPads (hardware + software product)

Microsoft launches unfinished Windows builds (software). Apple launches unfinished Lion builds (software).

The question is flawed in that it assumes that they companies have different release methodologies for the same class of products. Both Microsoft & Apple are making similar choices for similar classes of products.

What Gruber is doing is comparing release methodologies of different classes of products that are in the same market space. What drives the choice of release method is not the market space, but the nature of the product being released.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#49

Post by sambeau »

doyoulikeworms wrote: post #17
TomOfTTB wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I mean, there are two aspects to consider here. The Metro "Theme" which is attractive but I wouldn't call it mind blowing. It basically plays off a trend that had been developing since the web gained prominence which is to ditch the pseudo-3d interfaces for a flatter look. Again, I don't deny its attractive. The Interface Elements - As far as the UI Metro doesn't change much. It basica…

I think the reasoning behind the newer Windows phone OSes being a "breath of fresh air" is not so much that they're 100% original (what is?) or mind blowing. It's refreshing because it is, simply put, different . Android and iOS much more closely resemble each other than either resembles any recent Windows phone OS. That's my take, anyway.

Android much more closely resembles iOS. That's my take, anyway.

Re: All His Life Has He Looked Away, to the Future...

#50

Post by varunsrin »

eykanal wrote: post #46
varunsrin wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is not about which product is better, its about which release methodology results in a better product, which I claim is a pointless argument when you are shipping different products. Yes, customers will judge them equally when the product ships - but the developer release isn't for customers. Its for developers and partners

If that's the case, why are so many tech bloggers treating this as though it's the "OS that will defeat the iPad"? If everyone thought as you do, then they would realize that comparing this to a shipped product which has already been evaluated by the public is a pretty poor comparison, and Gruber's argument stands pretty strong.

Fair point, Thurrott calling this the iPad killer is pre-emptive, and Gruber is right in that respect.

I was railing on Gruber's snide remark about "ship something real", where he is subtly making the point that shipping when a product is final is the right way to do things.

EDIT: Typos

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