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The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

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Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#151
post #145
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd never heard that one, that's amazing. Who's the "we" you speak of?

Must be Spaniards. I worked with someone from Romania. He said Portuguese sounds just like Romanian until you try to understand it, then it sounds like someone making fun of Romanian.

I'm actually Romanian and I can confirm that. Portuguese is Romanian background noise at a party :-p

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#152
post #98

A discussion of Portuguese Rs wouldn't be complete without at least a mention of Jimmy Five[0] (aka Cebolinha), a character in the Monica's Gang cartoon. > Due to dyslalia, Jimmy Five is incapable of pronouncing the letter "r", replacing it with the letter l, in the Portuguese version, or with the letter w, in the English version. When the letter is used at the end of a word, however, he pronounces it normally (as in…

Quirky anectode: I befriended an american hobo who travelled to Brazil in the 90's (he came here again every now and then). He didn't shower much, truly looked like a crusty vagabond, and when he found out about it, he absolutely loved the character named Capitão Feio ("Captain Ugly"), a dirty, crusty supervillain whose superpowers are spreading dirt around. Capitão Feio lives in the sewers and got his powers and he…

Regarding cebolinha, absolutely his name is better in Portuguese. Especially since that's the word for green onions/scallions, which his hair resembles.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also /xo'se/ in Mexico as far as I can tell. I'm not Mexican but I know a lot of Mexicans and am pretty sure that's how they'd pronounce it. I would be very surprised if the "Spanish J" is silent anywhere; the person you're replying to almost certainly just made a mistake.

From my experience, native English speakers have a very hard time pronouncing the Spanish /j/ (or the German /ch/, for that matter, or even the French /r/), so they just pronounce it as a somewhat stressed /h/ (for lack of a better term).

“ch” in German actually represents two different sounds: e.g. the one in “ich” and the one in “Bauch”.

I’m a native English speaker and I find those extremely difficult to distinguish. But the French r is fine. (I spoke French to a near-native level 15 years ago; it’s probably decayed to “advanced intermediate” by now).

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#154
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Portuguese and I share this concern - PT-BR does have a lot of differences in vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation. Pronunciation bothers us the least actually, but other things are weird and/or plain wrong for us: - Lots of weird words adapted from English like "time" (pronounced "tee-me") which means team in PT-BR. Portuguese has a fine word for that already - equipa ("equipe" in BR) - and most of us speak goo…

Sorry to ask you this, and please fell free to not respond. But I have wanted to move to Portugal with my wife and kids for quite some time, but the large number of Brazilians linving and moving there bum me out to an extent. Mostly, I don't know what is the general feeling towards Brazilians in Portugal (I went there a few times, and absolutely loved it, but it was travel, not living). I'm not a fan of Brazilian mai…

I’m not the original commenter, but I’m Portuguese living a small city and I’d say most Brazilians that live here can blend easily. My kids have some Brazilian friends at school at they get along well.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#155
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was really surprised at how close the alphabet letters are pronounced in German and Portuguese.

Though I don't speak Portuguese myself, my immediate family roots are Azorean and grew up among the huge Azorean population surrounding New Bedford and Fall River, so I've heard it regularly for my entire life. I lived a bit further north during High School and regularly encountered folks from Russia and the Ukraine. I thought I was crazy for thinking spoken pt-PT and Russian sounded similar from a distance. However,…

It’s because Pt-Pt is a stressed timed language vs Br-Pt which is a syllable timed language.

Pt-Pt drops a lot of unstressed vowels whereas Br-Pt almost all syllables are pronounced.

Langfocus did a video on why (European) Português sounds like Russian.

https://youtu.be/Pik2R46xobA

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't imagine any two English accents as far apart from each other as are the Portuguese accents of "standard Globo TV presenter in Brazil" and that of the Azores. I don't know anything about Portuguese, but I find a lot of Scottish varieties to be totally incomprehensible (I'm American).

and Mancunian and Liverpudlian (I'm English).

New Zealand, Northern Ireland and South Africa can also be pretty tough. Australia, the Republic of Ireland, south England and Wales are all fine for me.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#157
post #110
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right, this is for Portuguese, not Portuguese (PT) /s Recently, there was a polemic in social media that Portuguese mothers were worried their kids were only speaking "Brazilian", due to the dominance of Brazilian content creators in Youtube, Instagram, TikTok... [1]: https://www.correiobraziliense.com.br/mundo/2021/11/4962302-... (Portuguese)

I'm Portuguese and I share this concern - PT-BR does have a lot of differences in vocabulary, grammar and pronunciation. Pronunciation bothers us the least actually, but other things are weird and/or plain wrong for us: - Lots of weird words adapted from English like "time" (pronounced "tee-me") which means team in PT-BR. Portuguese has a fine word for that already - equipa ("equipe" in BR) - and most of us speak goo…

> - Many Brazilians seemingly think "mas" (but) and "mais" (more) are the same word because they pronounce it similarly and thus end up using "mais" for everything, even in writing

In the Carioca accent, mas and mais have the same pronunciation (“maish” with the s chiado) so it’s easy to confuse one for the other. This has to do with the Carioca tendency to “change” (there’s a linguistic term but I forget) certain vowels. Nós is pronounced “noish”, gas “gaish” and Petrobras “Petrobraish”.

I guess the mas/mais confusion carries over in writing albeit being incorrect.

This does not happen in thr Paulista accent or most other accents I know.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#158
post #113
post #5

This is an excellent article! However, I find the definition of phonemes very unsatisfying: > Phonemes are not exactly the same thing as sounds, and they’re not exactly the same thing as letters. They are kind of like connecting categories that map letters to sounds … Phonemes are a way of saying, If you see a letter “r” is this situation, use Sound A for it. If you see “r” in this other situation, use a different So…

You got me thinking about minimal pairs of /p/ and /pʰ/ in English (at least my British English anyway). I'm not a linguist, but is this not a minimal pair? Mice pour (water into a jug) My spore (as opposed to your spore) Or can minimal pairs not cross word boundaries?

Interesting question! Not a linguist, but I’d be inclined to the view that the word boundary itself is phonemic: these can be transcribed (for me) as /ma͡is poː/ vs /ma͡i spoː/. Supporting this analysis is the fact that the [p] vs [pʰ] distinction then can be derived using the same phonological rules as usual; also, for me, the /a͡i/ in /ma͡is/ is slightly shorter than that in /ma͡i/. But, as I said, exactly pinning down the phonemes of a language can be tricky.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#159
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right, this is for Portuguese, not Portuguese (PT) /s Recently, there was a polemic in social media that Portuguese mothers were worried their kids were only speaking "Brazilian", due to the dominance of Brazilian content creators in Youtube, Instagram, TikTok... [1]: https://www.correiobraziliense.com.br/mundo/2021/11/4962302-... (Portuguese)

Yes, it's funny in a way that Brazilian culture is influencing Portuguese's other than the reverse (since Portugal colonized Brazil). I guess during the internet era, having a bigger population is a big factor on "culture pressure" or whatnot (there's more Brazilian online content than Portuguese, or any other lusophone country).

It seems very similar to the US influence on other English speaking cultures: the African diaspora influence on all aspects of culture in both countries - language, sport (the case has been made that boxing, basketball soccer/football and more are all directly influenced by asthetic stylings of African origin), music (blues, rock, samba, forro, hip-hop, soul, funk both the Brazilian and American types) literature (the places and people written about by Jorge Amado, Machado de Assis, ToninMorriaon) etc. and in my experience the ruling castes of both countries have sort of devauled or ignored the absolute saturation of these cultural influences over generations even as they have become the foundation which popular culture is built on and exported from both countries.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is certainly a factor. But in my personal experience one of the biggest hurdles for Brazilians is the fact that Portuguese have a much shorter vowel pronunciation, so the separation between syllables is much less pronounced. In contrast, some Brazilian accents have comically long vowels, so it sounds like they are spelling out every word.

It's easy to have a brazilian sound like she's speaking portuguese from Portugal: just stop pronouncing the vowels. If you're brazilian, try it. It actually works.

I feel like I have to start saying them, then swallow and leave an empty space instead. I can't say I like it.
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