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Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

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Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#51
post #47
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

semiconductors don't "use" quantum physics, quantum physics just tries to explain how they work. semiconductors still exist without requiring quantum physicists to come in and try and steal credit for something they had no influence on whatsoever.

This is sort of a profoundly different way of looking at it. The creation of the first semiconductors was closely tied to the development of quantum theory around electrons in metal. Bell labs hired up Shockley, Bardeen and a bunch of other solid state physicists (when it started to become obvious that the US needed to build computing devices that were faster and more rugged than vacuum tubes) and it was their knowle…

It may be that is how it started, but I'll never forget the day my Advanced Chemistry teacher at Rose-Hulman used standard chemistry (I think it was the Nerst equation, 40 years ago!) to explain how a diode works.

Then he continued and explained how a junction transistor worked with the same equations!

No QM required.

Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#52
"The two theories that underlie this experiment, general relativity and quantum mechanics, don’t work well together."

The Aharonov-Bohm effect alone is perplexing enough and there isn't full unanimity about the theory that underpins it. That we're seeing a similar effect with gravity is truly exiting as I reckon it will attract a great deal more research in this area.

It seems to me that Aharonov-Bohm effect now has a gravitational parallel tells us that we're honing in closer and closer to having a quantum understanding of gravity.

Excellent stuff.

Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#53
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sort of a profoundly different way of looking at it. The creation of the first semiconductors was closely tied to the development of quantum theory around electrons in metal. Bell labs hired up Shockley, Bardeen and a bunch of other solid state physicists (when it started to become obvious that the US needed to build computing devices that were faster and more rugged than vacuum tubes) and it was their knowle…

It may be that is how it started, but I'll never forget the day my Advanced Chemistry teacher at Rose-Hulman used standard chemistry (I think it was the Nerst equation, 40 years ago!) to explain how a diode works. Then he continued and explained how a junction transistor worked with the same equations! No QM required.

The nernst equation is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst_equation (redox). THere's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst%E2%80%93Planck_equation which also isn't exactly for diode modelling.

I'm sure you can find classical equations that model some aspects of p-n junctions but you're ultimately going to see that p-n junction physics is literally quantum physics of tunneling electrons in atomic solids.

Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#54
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be that is how it started, but I'll never forget the day my Advanced Chemistry teacher at Rose-Hulman used standard chemistry (I think it was the Nerst equation, 40 years ago!) to explain how a diode works. Then he continued and explained how a junction transistor worked with the same equations! No QM required.

The nernst equation is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst_equation (redox). THere's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst%E2%80%93Planck_equation which also isn't exactly for diode modelling. I'm sure you can find classical equations that model some aspects of p-n junctions but you're ultimately going to see that p-n junction physics is literally quantum physics of tunneling electrons in atomic solids.

It's not tunneling, it's conduction. There are liquid electrolytic rectifiers, they suck, but they exist.

Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#55
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nernst equation is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst_equation (redox). THere's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst%E2%80%93Planck_equation which also isn't exactly for diode modelling. I'm sure you can find classical equations that model some aspects of p-n junctions but you're ultimately going to see that p-n junction physics is literally quantum physics of tunneling electrons in atomic solids.

It's not tunneling, it's conduction. There are liquid electrolytic rectifiers, they suck, but they exist.

Oh, I see what you're saying now. Your teacher showed you the equations explaining a classical (pre-semiconductor) diode, then showed those equations predict some aspects of semiconductor diodes.

Yeah, that doesn't mean that diodes don't work in a fundamentally quantum way. There are a number of details about diodes (for example, the emitted frequency of light in an LED) that are very specifically due to quantum energy transitions of electrons in outer shells. It doesn't get any more quantum physics than that.

Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not tunneling, it's conduction. There are liquid electrolytic rectifiers, they suck, but they exist.

Oh, I see what you're saying now. Your teacher showed you the equations explaining a classical (pre-semiconductor) diode, then showed those equations predict some aspects of semiconductor diodes. Yeah, that doesn't mean that diodes don't work in a fundamentally quantum way. There are a number of details about diodes (for example, the emitted frequency of light in an LED) that are very specifically due to quantum ener…

This was the equations for a doped semiconducting device, not a vacuum tube. All the equations we had previously been using to describe buffered solutions, etc. also happened to work perfectly well for semiconductors.

LEDs weren't discussed that day.

Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#57
post #21

I'm not sure how it's possible to "never touch" a gravitational field given that they extend throughout the universe and are impossible to be shielded.

As is unfortunately common in pop science writeups, the article gives a garbled description of what the Aharonov-Bohm effect actually is. The key point is not that "the field never touches the particles". The key point is that the potential , rather than the field, has an observable effect. In classical gauge theories, the potential itself is not considered to be observable; only the field (the gradient of the potent…

"The key point is that the potential, rather than the field, has an observable effect. In classical gauge theories, the potential itself is not considered to be observable; only the field (the gradient of the potential) is. However, in QM, the potential itself can have observable effects."

That comment is short, succinct and understandable, it's the best summary of the physics involved that I've heard in so few words.

It seems to me that we don't put sufficient emphasis into considering potentials. Viewing things from the aspect of potentials I reckon changes one's perspective, and I think the Aharonov-Bohm effect is a case in point, without doing so we easily come aground.

However, the Aharonov-Bohm effect still perplexes me more than I'd like - in QM, why exactly does potential have observable effects? Why is it that a phase shift occurs in the wave function of a charged particle in the near vicinity of a solenoid even though both magnetic and electric fields are negligible? (I'm either not convinced by explanations that I've heard to date or thst I don't fully understand them.)

Whilst my understanding of the Aharonov-Bohm effect is deficient in this regard, it nevertheless seems to me that if the effect can also be detected in a gravitational field context then we've likely found a profound and deeply relevant connection between EM fields/relatively and gravity. If verified, then we'd have to consider it a breakthrough in our understanding of what up until now has been an intractable problem.

The key point is that we've now experimental evidence for such a connection and that's really good news.

Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#58
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is unfortunately common in pop science writeups, the article gives a garbled description of what the Aharonov-Bohm effect actually is. The key point is not that "the field never touches the particles". The key point is that the potential , rather than the field, has an observable effect. In classical gauge theories, the potential itself is not considered to be observable; only the field (the gradient of the potent…

"The key point is that the potential, rather than the field, has an observable effect. In classical gauge theories, the potential itself is not considered to be observable; only the field (the gradient of the potential) is. However, in QM, the potential itself can have observable effects." That comment is short, succinct and understandable, it's the best summary of the physics involved that I've heard in so few words…

> in QM, why exactly does potential have observable effects?

The simple answer is that it's right there in the Hamiltonian, and the Hamiltonian is the central operator in QM, the one that determines time evolution. The fact that the EM potential appears there has been known almost as long as QM itself. Much of the recent QM experimentation in gravitational fields has been making use of recent technological advances to verify, what theorists have expected all along, that the gravitational potential acts just like the EM potential in the Hamiltonian.

Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#59
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is unfortunately common in pop science writeups, the article gives a garbled description of what the Aharonov-Bohm effect actually is. The key point is not that "the field never touches the particles". The key point is that the potential , rather than the field, has an observable effect. In classical gauge theories, the potential itself is not considered to be observable; only the field (the gradient of the potent…

"The key point is that the potential, rather than the field, has an observable effect. In classical gauge theories, the potential itself is not considered to be observable; only the field (the gradient of the potential) is. However, in QM, the potential itself can have observable effects." That comment is short, succinct and understandable, it's the best summary of the physics involved that I've heard in so few words…

> if the effect can also be detected in a gravitational field context then we've likely found a profound and deeply relevant connection between EM fields/relatively and gravity.

I'm not sure I'd say it's a breakthrough since theorists have expected it all along. And current treatments of this all have a key limitation, that they are using non-relativistic QM. Which in practice works fine since all the experiments we can currently do in this area are well within the non-relativistic domain.

A real breakthrough would be a relativistic quantum theory that included gravity as well as the other interactions. But that's probably still some way off.

Re: Quantum particles feel the influence of gravitational fields they never touch

#60
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The key point is that the potential, rather than the field, has an observable effect. In classical gauge theories, the potential itself is not considered to be observable; only the field (the gradient of the potential) is. However, in QM, the potential itself can have observable effects." That comment is short, succinct and understandable, it's the best summary of the physics involved that I've heard in so few words…

> if the effect can also be detected in a gravitational field context then we've likely found a profound and deeply relevant connection between EM fields/relatively and gravity. I'm not sure I'd say it's a breakthrough since theorists have expected it all along. And current treatments of this all have a key limitation, that they are using non-relativistic QM. Which in practice works fine since all the experiments we…

"real breakthrough would be a relativistic quantum theory that included gravity..."

Yeah, sometimes one has to be optimistic. I'm aware of the limitations of using non-relativistic QM but it seemed to me that this experimental connection, if confirmed, would encourage or even force relativistic work to center stage.

Essentially, both theoretical and experimental practitioners could now say 'we've now a concrete stating point'. On reflection, I wouldn't expect a full GR explanation to come easy. Still, it's a start.

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