Teaching how to code is broken • Hacker News Board

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#91

Post by systemvoltage » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 9:38 PM UTC

godot wrote: post #85

IMO this was why the early web was so powerful as a way to on-ramp new developers. I learned coding a little bit before the web, from school materials like writing Pascal programs in DOS, in early 90s. Those were fun little exercises for school, but that was about it. In the late 90s I got the internet and got curious about making web pages, did View Source everywhere and taught myself HTML and basic CSS/JS (nothing…

Yeah, I built a bunch of things in Macromedia Flash (Actionscript 4.0). It was when I realized that I can tie the animation with code. Hell, I didn't even know that it is code. It is just some structured text to automate thigns. Mind blown.

I also like: https://handmadehero.org/ series but it was too much of a time sink.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#92

Post by ModernMech » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 9:42 PM UTC

> I've found that modeling or simulating something real like a card game is very effective.

I think the last paragraph of this article should have really been blown up to be the entire article. I want to know more about this experience the author had.

Because one question I have is: should we even be teaching object-oriented programming to beginners? The rationale for the modified class schedule is that it answers the question "WHY!?", but I still feel myself screaming that question after reading this piece.

Let me propose something entirely different: what if trying to get everyone to learn Python is too much to ask? In fact, why would we use such a niche programming language when there's one out there used by far more people: Excel. Why are we reaching toward the object-oriented model of program design, when the people have spoken as to what works for them? Far and away, the masses prefer the reactive, dataflow experience provided by Excel, so let's meet them at their level. And SQL to the list. There are people in my life who I wouldn't trust to turn change the battery on my laptop, and yet they somehow know and understand SQL for their job. They are completely mystified by Python, yet can write a SQL query like no one's business.

I think it's far past time "learning to code" meant "learning Python/JS/C". Let's stop trying to force them to use a tool that we developers are comfortable with, and teach them how to code using tools they already know how to use.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#93

Post by habeebtc » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 9:44 PM UTC

qsort wrote: post #31

habeebtc wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in school (it's been a while), we built super boring things that nobody cared about as our assignments. Various inventory systems, which you have to sort/search. That was a big challenge of mine in school. I wasn't that interested in the assignments, because I was building boring stuff that didn't really solve problems, let alone ones I cared about. I am pretty prolific in my career, and I'm not even what…

I partially agree, but how isn't the usual CS curriculum relevant for Sysadmins, DBAs, network engineers and the like? What CS curriculum doesn't include networks, relational theory, hardware architecture, os architecture? How can anybody in those roles be successful without at least informally understanding the rudiments of big-O notation or without having some light scripting skills? Certainly CS curricula could be…

My inclusion of them on the list is from just 2 data points:

Those sorts of classes were available when I was in school, but it was not a whole track, it was 1 class each.

Second data point: These are the types of roles I meet in the wild who would benefit from coding, and they usually cannot (or can do some very light scripting).

I cannot explain it exactly. They just usually are missing that skill.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#94

Post by andrewzah » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 9:44 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #86

jholman wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E'ybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but don't nobody want to lift no heavy-ass weights. https://youtu.be/4UlgXIL0-3g?t=10

I know it's a pithy saying, but is it true? People tend to report the actual lifting of the weights as pretty pleasurable. It's the whole supporting lifestyle grind of consistently making it to the gym, only and always eating food whose ingredients you have weighed, etc. where you lose most people.

It's a pithy saying. It's basically shorthand for: "nobody wants to put in the work and adjust their lifestyle to achieve that goal of being ripped". But I wouldn't say doing 3x or 5x sets of lifting heavy weights ever is "fun"- you just get used to it.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#95

Post by hackinthebochs » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 9:48 PM UTC

andrewzah wrote: post #37

throw_m239339 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Girls in STEM: society needs to quit telling people "math is hard, tee hee" and quit shopping in the Pink Aisle at the toy store and reinforcing that culture. Buy your kids Lego and Raspberry Pi circuit kits and see what happens. Girls in STEM =/= Girls becoming professional programmers. There are plenty of girls in STEM fields such as medicine, biology, geology, physics, Math, civil engineering... The fact that…

Sitting at a computer for 10 hours a day isn't a gendered thing. There is nothing about computer science or programming that is gender specific. It, ideally, should sit around 50-50, ±5%. So yes, it is a problem that it so heavily skews male. As to why, it's multi-faceted cultural issue, with how our society treats boys and girls starting from birth. In other words, a pipeline issue.

It is not clear that interest in extended computer use isn't gendered. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#96

Post by codazoda » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 9:50 PM UTC

I created a series of small books that teaches code by making art. I give them a chunk of code to type and then I break it down after that. This is how I learned long ago.

People tend to learn slowly as they work, understanding more and more as they go. Often, they can make minor changes after their first project. Change the color? Make it larger?

Splash of Code: Learn Programming by Making Computer Art https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082FMPXW6

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#97

Post by wiseleo » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 9:52 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #16

dboreham wrote: post #11

Article seems to be complaining about the typical chapter layout for a reference book on a given programming language. Such books aren't intended to teach coding. The intended audience is those who already understand how to code, in a different language.

Basically, every YT tutorial is exactly like the Chapters listed. Corey to Sentdex, or pick your favorite "How to code" book from Amazon. It is quite rare to find a book that the article describes (use-case based learning). Can you share a few if you know?

The Head First series of books. They are available for multiple programming languages and use the same set of use cases across them all. The books are even written with techniques to suggest to the brain it should remember this information.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#98

Post by kenjackson » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 10:05 PM UTC

I love the last chapter of "No one teaches the end so lets put concurrency here" -- is so true. I feel like I've almost never done the last chapter of any textbook I studied in school. And it does seem like concurrency shows up in a lot of comp sci textbooks at the very end.

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#99

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #51

bob1029 wrote: post #17

I have always struggled with how to advise my friends & family on this path of learning. It seems like everyone wants to be a WFH developer these days, but I don't know how to enable them to succeed on that path. "Go build something you want to build!" is something I keep reiterating (as does this article). But most don't seem to be interested in that for whatever reason (presumably because its fucking hard). Maybe I…

I have never met a programmer I respected skill-wise that wouldn't randomly spend a weekend locked in a room solving an esoteric problem they felt they had to solve (for no reason). Over the Christmas holidays everyone at my company writes PoCs or hobby projects, being glad to have some free time away from paid programming in order to enjoy recreational programming. What I'm trying to get at is software engineering i…

[deleted]

Re: Teaching how to code is broken

#100

Post by gumby » Fri, Jan 14, 2022, 10:09 PM UTC

Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs follows this advice: designed for people who'd never used a computer before (no kidding -- this was common in the early 80s), the first lecture introduced the idea of procedures and abstraction and went on to demonstrate root finding, prime factorization, and a little symbol differentiation IIRC. A great way to get started.