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Cost of Attrition

benjiweber.co.uk

131–140 of 169 posts

Re: Cost of Attrition

#131

I’ve come to think a certain amount of attrition is needed to keep a product and the individuals working on it healthy. Back in my consulting days I worked with a few enterprise software companies that had a lot of highly tenured employees (think 10+ years). All the long-timers I met were skilled fiefdom builders with a strong bias toward opposing every change and maintaining the technical status quo because a lot of…

I think some developers don't realize that corporations have a target attrition rate and it is fairly easy for them to enforce.

I would say that Attrition actually benefits employees and companies. The Employees who stay take a pay cut each year either to inflation or to the fact they just don't get paid more. Employees get better pay once they change jobs and companies get to have new people at a lower rate and they in turn may have a different perspective. Avoiding change I think it isn't necessarily the people who will stay for long periods of time but it might be corporate culture instead.

Re: Cost of Attrition

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employees used to get pensions, have reasonable work hours, a reliable schedule and could afford to have a parent stay home in their 3-4 bedroom house on an acre. Pensions are not relevant anymore. I see no reason to pay a defined benefit pension fund’s employees and expenses when I can simply buy VOO or a target date fund at one of many brokerages for basically free. And I get to avoid the risk of a corrupt employ…

Pensions are binding in their payments, the stock market is not. It’s clear why some people would prefer it.

They are binding until the money is not there decades in the future, and you do not have enough political power to get a full bailout, and end up having to take a haircut.

I would take a defined benefit pension from the federal government (or any other entity that can print money), but any other payout promised decades in the future is just as, if not more, risky as investing in an index fund, because you give up control of the money.

Re: Cost of Attrition

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your argument that encouraging attrition would cause these people to leave rather than the employees you might value more? That is, why wouldn’t doing things that lead to higher attrition lead to having a all the people you want leaving and the people you don’t want continuing to stay because e.g. it is harder for them to go elsewhere.

I think you have to fire them. If you just non-selectively "do things that lead to higher attrition", you're right, you're going to lose the best employees and just make things worse. It's painful and it's actively painful in a way that "let's just not pay so much everyone sticks around forever". You'd have to yank out someone that has convinced everyone they're essential to the company, but they're mostly essential…

This is only necessary for single-product companies. Otherwise, just do mandatory career broadening assignments like the military does. You have to learn about and work on many parts of many stacks and regularly change teams and product lines. There is no need to fire people to keep them working in one position forever and building fiefdoms.

Heck, militaries even have interbranch and even international exchange programs. There is no reason in principle companies can't do the same and temporarily trade out employees every now and again to learn how things work elsewhere. It would have to be subject to pretty strict NDAs and limitation of sensitive data access, but given the sensitivity of classified defense data, if the military can make it work, private companies should be able to make it work, too.

Re: Cost of Attrition

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting tangent, there. I’m not pining for “the good old days,” at all, and it’s … interesting … that this was what you read. I’m enthusiastic about tech, the future, learning new stuff, and making the world a better place. I feel that it is a shame that the concept of Personal Integrity (or corporate Integrity) is considered an anachronism.

> I’m not pining for “the good old days,” at all > The entire industry has now shaped itself into a transient, mercenary, loyalty-free community. You're not pining for a time prior to when the industry shaped itself into a transient, mercenary, loyalty-free community? Or you mean to say it was a different kind of mess before, that has now shaped itself into another mess, but mess nonetheless? If so, my apologies.

The second.

Lots of people want to "go back," but that can never happen. It does not mean that "the old ways" are bad, or that they could not be applied to today or the future, but there is a very good chance they would not be applicable to today's world, without modification.

I don't like "Old bad; New Shiny." Something is advantageous to the current situation, or it is not. Its provenance should have nothing to do with it.

As an engineer, who has been developing (and shipping) software for my entire life, I can tell you that some (not all, just some) things that I learned "in the good old days" are quite applicable to today's world, and I always find it amusing, when someone goes "Wow! That is so cool!" when I have shown them some old pattern that was created before they were born.

In the company that I worked at for a long time, a bunch of ultra-conservative folks had a war with future-facing folks, and won (that's one reason I was let go). I totally understand where they come from, but I also think that it was a disaster, and may kill a 100-year-old company.

But no one asked me. They just handed me my pink slip.

Best thing that ever happened to me.

Funny "In Soviet Russia..." story. A friend of mine, who is married to a Russian, and lived in Perm for many years, said that the soviets always built two of everything, because one inevitably failed, and was used for parts, for the second. I have no idea how true it was. He is prone to flights of hyperbole.

Re: Cost of Attrition

#136
Arguments of attrition aside, I don't agree with this model.

Maybe I'm not understanding what an edge is supposed to be, but the author implies that "something" is lost when the edge disappears. That doesn't make sense. Knowledge live in the node, not the edge. You don't just forget a project you worked on just because someone left. If you lose access to knowledge when someone leaves, that's because you did a bad job of preventing silos.

Further, someone who has deep domain knowledge is valuable even with 0 connections.

Re: Cost of Attrition

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pensions are binding in their payments, the stock market is not. It’s clear why some people would prefer it.

They are binding until the money is not there decades in the future, and you do not have enough political power to get a full bailout, and end up having to take a haircut. I would take a defined benefit pension from the federal government (or any other entity that can print money), but any other payout promised decades in the future is just as, if not more, risky as investing in an index fund, because you give up con…

When I left my company, after 27 years, I chose to take my pension in a lump sum. I had plenty of money in other investments, so I wasn't too worried about it.

I used the money to fund one of my companies, and tossed the rest into an index fund.

I made back the money I used to fund the company in a couple of years; just from the portion in the index fund (it's been crazy).

Earlier this year, my ex-employees told me that the company is shutting down their pension plan. I don't think that they are siphoning off the money, Jimmy Hoffa-style, but I think that I'm glad I took the cashout.

Re: Cost of Attrition

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget or discount the destruction of the social contract between employer and employee. Massive layoffs, insolvent pensions, etc were just the start. Employees used to get pensions, have reasonable work hours, a reliable schedule and could afford to have a parent stay home in their 3-4 bedroom house on an acre. When all that goes away and I have to work harder for less than my parents got then what is the poin…

> Employees used to get pensions, have reasonable work hours, a reliable schedule and could afford to have a parent stay home in their 3-4 bedroom house on an acre. Pensions are not relevant anymore. I see no reason to pay a defined benefit pension fund’s employees and expenses when I can simply buy VOO or a target date fund at one of many brokerages for basically free. And I get to avoid the risk of a corrupt employ…

>Pensions are not relevant anymore.

Stated as fact without evidence. Many people are still paying into pensions and many more would like too. Think blue collar and gig workers who scrape by on a small fraction of what many outspoken people here take home.

>I see no reason to pay a defined benefit pension fund’s employees and expenses when I can simply buy VOO or a target date fund at one of many brokerages for basically free.

Because you’re highly compensated and have the buying power of X median income households. Median income households need to retire too. What’s your solution for them if not pensions.

>And I get to avoid the risk of a corrupt employee of the employer messing with it, or to risk the employer not being around 50 years later.

Pensions are supposed to legally outlast employers. Judicial failure to enforce that is evidence of a corrupt and politicized judicial branch that is actively waging class war against those with lower economic status.

>The other parts of the post have so many factors that contribute that it is not related to employer employee social contracts. Birth rates, relative developed-ness of other countries, supply and demand of labor, automation, political winds, societal changes, etc.

All of these factors you mentioned have been politicized and exploited to manufacture consent in the American public to vote against their own interests as bought and paid for politicians, judges, journalists, prosecutors, and lawyers sell out their own economic cohort to, for the sake of brevity, make the rich, richer.

I’m happy to flesh out how each factor you named has been weaponized if you’re genuinely curious.

Re: Cost of Attrition

#139
post #22
post #15

Just look at FAANG: Retain developers at (almost) any cost. Pay developers like it's monopoly money. You could call this "The benefit of retention", though that may be a bit reductive.

> Just look at FAANG: Retain developers at (almost) any cost. That isn't true at all. FAANG pays a lot for you to join them and give good raises, but they don't pay extra to make you stay instead of leaving for another FAANG. So there is still a lot of churn at FAANG.

> FAANG pays a lot for you to join them and give good raises, but they don't pay extra to make you stay instead of leaving for another FAANG

No, they just choose who to reward according to whatever their metrics are and how someone's management chain chooses to apply those metrics. These rewards are explicitly stock-based to help with retention.

Some examples:

- Have a "top talent" marker, managers get N% of their headcount to distribute each year. Anyone with the marker get more comp than their peers. - Create stock and bonus bands based on your rating and level, then heavily reward high senior bands compared to others. - Create a special retention program for specific areas of tech (eg ML) or for senior engineers who "cap out". Anyone in these programs gets a boost to comp.

These things can be combined such that you can have 2x-5x differences in compensation for two engineers in the same department at the same nominal level, sometimes with small differences in performance ratings.

When used correctly as intended programs like this reward people who work the hardest, are the best at what they do, or who will cause the most pain if they leave the company. If used incorrectly they become a tool for managers to reward their friends/sycophants. If a manager doesn't think about how to use them at all then it becomes a random walk, biased toward whatever you happened to do around review time.

But no the FAANG companies are absolutely aware of the effects of retention and deploy resources to retain employees they think are important, at least at a high level. Sometimes those efforts don't reach the right people and sometimes your estimation of who is important is not aligned with the company's view.

Re: Cost of Attrition

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employees used to get pensions, have reasonable work hours, a reliable schedule and could afford to have a parent stay home in their 3-4 bedroom house on an acre. Pensions are not relevant anymore. I see no reason to pay a defined benefit pension fund’s employees and expenses when I can simply buy VOO or a target date fund at one of many brokerages for basically free. And I get to avoid the risk of a corrupt employ…

>Pensions are not relevant anymore. Stated as fact without evidence. Many people are still paying into pensions and many more would like too. Think blue collar and gig workers who scrape by on a small fraction of what many outspoken people here take home. >I see no reason to pay a defined benefit pension fund’s employees and expenses when I can simply buy VOO or a target date fund at one of many brokerages for basica…

>Median income households need to retire too. What’s your solution for them if not pensions.

The government redistributing wealth, i.e. Social Security. A federal defined benefit pension plan, if you will. And if it were up to me, I would take it even further and make it universal basic income.

> Pensions are supposed to legally outlast employers. Judicial failure to enforce that is evidence of a corrupt and politicized judicial branch that is actively waging class war against those with lower economic status.

Decades and decades of evidence indicate that the system does not work. But more importantly, automation and technology have obviated employer sponsored defined benefit pensions.

There is no value add from having employers in the middle of the wealth transfer chain. It is just extra paperwork and overhead and chances for corruption.

The pension funds invest in the same place as everyone else, the stock and real estate market. And then the government comes and bails out asset owners time and time again, so that the pension recipients get bailed out. But then why not hand the pension recipients the cash directly?

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