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If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

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Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#71

Post by pyohio2 »

adbge wrote: post #34
hackinthebochs wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that programming in your spare time is not a necessary condition for enjoying or having passion for programming. Further, its also discriminatory against people with families, or other hobbies, or against people who don't want to do the same thing that they did 40-50 hours during the week on the weekends too.

Let's be clear: it's only discriminatory against people that don't have pet projects. Having a family or other hobbies and having pet projects are not mutually exclusive.

Really? Try having a 18 month old & a 3.5 year old and single parenting.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#72

Post by orangecat »

ctdonath wrote: post #57
sunkencity wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am myself a passionate developer, that doesn't mean I have the time to make massive open-source projects just to get a better resume, because I'm neck deep in writing code for the company I have been running for the last 7 years. Not all people have the luxury to figure out something worthwhile do do and put on github. I hate hiring people and putting a price tag on them, it's a cruel world but not every job interv…

At risk of inspiring ire... I'd have certain doubts of someone who does produce lots of open-source code, insofar as that could be construed as they don't think highly enough of their own code to sell it. (As I write I'm waiting for GCC to rebuild due to the need to fix a bug therein. That such a bug exists at this late date in a product so widely used as a foundational tool does not inspire confidence in OSS. I find…

I'd have certain doubts of someone who does produce lots of open-source code, insofar as that could be construed as they don't think highly enough of their own code to sell it.

Also, people who do volunteer work are obviously unqualified.

I find such flaws tend not to occur in "closed" software, where someone is paid to polish the corners that nobody wants to.

"A" bug in gcc proves that open source stinks? Have you used IE6?

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#73

Post by 0x12 »

cks wrote: post #65
0x12 wrote: post #24

If you have a life, I don't want you. If you have a family, I don't want you. If you have enough energy to do your work but not enough energy that after work you can work some more, I don't want you. What is it that makes employers so enamored of people with 'pet projects'? Are they easier to take advantage of? Do they work long hours without expecting compensation? Does not having dependents mean that it's easier to…

> If you have a life, I don't want you. Seriously, there is a lot of judgement in that sentence. "Having a life", having a family is a matter of choice. I can choose not to have a family and work on my pet projects. I choose how I spend my time. If I sacrifice relationships in favor of pet projects, does that make me a lesser person? could it possibly make me a better software developer? Is it really unreasonable to…

You can read a judgement in there if you want to, it is actually the opposite. I think having/not having pet projects or other life choices you make outside of your professional hours should not have such a direct impact on being hired or not.

Of course you are free to make your choices any way you see fit and if you choose work over personal relationships that does not make you a lesser person.

So you can have your pet projects and another person could have their family (or both, or none!) and I think the only thing that should matter during the job interview is what they intend to do during their shifts and whether or not they are capable of doing that to the best of their abilities. Your free time is yours, not your employers and is non of your employers business.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#75

Post by dlo »

ctdonath wrote: post #57
sunkencity wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am myself a passionate developer, that doesn't mean I have the time to make massive open-source projects just to get a better resume, because I'm neck deep in writing code for the company I have been running for the last 7 years. Not all people have the luxury to figure out something worthwhile do do and put on github. I hate hiring people and putting a price tag on them, it's a cruel world but not every job interv…

At risk of inspiring ire... I'd have certain doubts of someone who does produce lots of open-source code, insofar as that could be construed as they don't think highly enough of their own code to sell it. (As I write I'm waiting for GCC to rebuild due to the need to fix a bug therein. That such a bug exists at this late date in a product so widely used as a foundational tool does not inspire confidence in OSS. I find…

Out of curiosity, what bug did you encounter?

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#76

Post by cmorrisrsg »

factotvm wrote: post #40
cmorrisrsg wrote: post #20

I actually reject people without pet projects for an entirely different reason. I can find out much more about how you behave as a developer and whether or not you'd fit in with our company by reading your code than I can from any kind of interview or whiteboard challenge. Ideally you'd actually hire the prospective developer for a short contract project before hiring, but that has significant challenges and costs as…

Then give them a coding problem that takes a short amount of time but allows you to evaluate their skills. I relish these opportunities and respect the companies that ask me to do them. To keep with your metaphor, ask the carpenter to make you a cabinet door. Again, I agree with others here... if you're passionate about the startup you're working at (and you should be), that is your side project. I distrust people wh…

Any coding problem that could feasibly be completed in an acceptable amount of time would be too small to actually tell me what I want to know. I mostly don't want to know what algorithms you're aware of or how quickly you can type. I want to know how you structure and modularize code. I want to know how you debug things. I want to know if you can refactor well. In short, I want to know about how you handle building and maintaining real software. If I hired people to do coding problems all day, that would be another thing, but I don't.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#77

Post by ascendant »

petercooper wrote: post #45
adbge wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be clear: it's only discriminatory against people that don't have pet projects. Having a family or other hobbies and having pet projects are not mutually exclusive.

Exactly. It's hardly as if there's a lack of time. The average geek, in my experience, seems to waste more than enough time playing computer games, watching movies, or bunkum on the TV. It's not a giant leap to suggest that people actually using their spare time to work on aspects relating to their career are, and should be, doing better than people who treat it as a 9 to 5. (Oh, and posting on HN.. hehe)

So doing things other than thinking about work is "wasting time", huh? I guess as an employer you want to hire people that will grind themselves into dust making you rich, but as an employee I work to live, not the other way around.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#78

Post by Luyt »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #63
spacemanaki wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought those contracts were not enforceable in CA? I'm most definitely not a lawyer tho, so I have little to back that up, but it's what I read in Joel Spolsky's answer here: http://answers.onstartups.com/questions/19422/if-im-working-...

Generally they are not enforcable, but it doesn't stop folks like Google and Cisco from having them. And they are written with big letters in the front "THIS IS AN AT WILL ARRANGEMENT ..." which basically says they can fire you at any time for any reason and later "We own everything you do while you work for us." Basically the message is "Sure work on your own projects and we will decide it's no longer in our best in…

> just quit if I really wanted to work on other stuff

That, or publish the code under a pseudonym.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#79

Post by nasmorn »

pdubs wrote: post #52
Aloisius wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're hiring a software engineer and that person programs in their spare time, it is a pretty clear indication that they not only want to be a software engineer but also enjoys programming. I used to ask this question, but now I've generalized it to asking if someone has any hobbies. I find passion in any area to a good indicator of the type of people I want to hire.

>I used to ask this question, but now I've generalized it to asking if someone has any hobbies. I think this is far better than "pet projects". Some people would rather socialize, read literature, play music, play or watch sports, work on cars/home improvement, paint, travel, camp, write, get involved in politics, read the news, or any number of things! Rest and relaxation are particularly helpful to mental health. E…

I personally enjoy life more when I only work about 40 hours per week at the computer. Also since I have a small daughter I prefer not to spend extra time in meetings. I also like to travel a lot so I need time off. On the plus side (for my clients) I generally feel very productive once these conditions are met.
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