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The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

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Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#91

Post by [deleted] »

kortex wrote: post #54
bradrn wrote: post #5

This is an excellent article! However, I find the definition of phonemes very unsatisfying: > Phonemes are not exactly the same thing as sounds, and they’re not exactly the same thing as letters. They are kind of like connecting categories that map letters to sounds … Phonemes are a way of saying, If you see a letter “r” is this situation, use Sound A for it. If you see “r” in this other situation, use a different So…

(Not saying you are wrong, I'm trying to clear up my misconceptions) I didn't realize that phonemes were perceptually distinct units of sound, in the same way graphemes are visually distinct units. (yes there is the whole "some speakers recognize different sounds in their brain as the same" wrinkle). What would the term be for units of sound which are perceptually distinct regardless of listener's perspective? E.g. […

[deleted]

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#92

Post by Kaze404 »

soneca wrote: post #42
Kaze404 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Rod" might work as a suitable nickname, since it's also used for names like Roderick (which sounds eerily similar to Rodrigo now that I think about it).

No one calls me Rod, I am not comfortable creating an actual nickname. I am happy enough just changing the pronunciation

You don't necessarily have to frame it that way. "Hey folks, I understand my name can be difficult to pronounce sometimes so feel free to call me X". But I also totally understand if you don't feel like it's necessary. Just something to keep in mind :)

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#93

Post by pelasaco »

nwatson wrote: post #41
pelasaco wrote: post #17

"Take this with a grain of salt, because I am not as familiar with the European dialect." Actually as expected in Portugal, they have many dialects too. There are four main Portuguese dialect groups, all mutually intelligible: Central, or Beira, Southern (Estremenho), including Lisbon, Alentejo, and Algarve, Insular, including the dialects of Madeira and the Azores. There is even an extinct one, https://en.wikipedia.…

I can't imagine any two English accents as far apart from each other as are the Portuguese accents of "standard Globo TV presenter in Brazil" and that of the Azores. I grew up on and off in Brazil (Rio de Janeiro and Brasília) and later spent 20+ years in the SF Bay Area. Once in a while I'd run into old-school Azoreans who'd lived in the Portuguese towns (Santa Clara, Newark, San Leandro, Half Moon Bay, Pescadero, C…

The base of the Florianopolis immigration is from Azores. They are called "manezinhos" and have their own dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florianopolitan_dialect

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#94

Post by School-Cotton »

asveikau wrote: post #89
School-Cotton wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels I think it's more constrained than this; I don't have it in "baton", for example. I'm no phonologist, but I suspect it has to be followed by a liquid (L or R sound). I have it in e.g. "butter" or "little".

Like another comment I can think of examples without a liquid following. "Latin" is one. (I have a distant memory of being called strange for saying that as [t]) I think I sometimes only do it if I'm talking fast. Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign.

For me the /t/ in Latin is a glottal stop. Where are you from?

> Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign.

I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure someone pronouncing the /t/ in "butter", "little", etc. as [t] would make me very confident that they weren't American.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#95

Post by FeteCommuniste »

asveikau wrote: post #89
School-Cotton wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American English uses the r flap for the letters t and d between vowels I think it's more constrained than this; I don't have it in "baton", for example. I'm no phonologist, but I suspect it has to be followed by a liquid (L or R sound). I have it in e.g. "butter" or "little".

Like another comment I can think of examples without a liquid following. "Latin" is one. (I have a distant memory of being called strange for saying that as [t]) I think I sometimes only do it if I'm talking fast. Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign.

The "t" in "Latin" is just a glottal stop for me. Using [t] sounds vaguely British to my ears.

Same goes for other words that end in "t" + unstressed "en," e.g. "fatten," "batten."

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#96

Post by FeteCommuniste »

Rygian wrote: post #46
StephenSmith wrote: post #33

I took some Spanish in school but my most notable experience attempting to learn (Brazilian) Portuguese as a native English speaker was hearing the difference between the names José and Roberto. There's the quintessentially, native-English-speaking pronunciation of José with a hard J. With Spanish, the J is obviously silent, or extremely soft, but in Brazilian Portuguese (I can't speak for other forms), you pronounce…

As a Spaniard, I am confused by the "the J is obviously silent". The most neutral pronunciation of José in Spain (the one you would hear in Spanish broadcast news) is indeed /xo'se/. Spanish is extremely rich in pronunciation variations, due to the large population spread over several continents, so in most cases when you observe something about "Spanish" you need to focus on a specific region or dialect, for the obs…

Maybe they got Spanish "J" confused with Spanish "H?"

There are some cases like "halar" / "jalar" but I don't think I've seen the name "Hosé" before. :-)

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#97

Post by asveikau »

FeteCommuniste wrote: post #95
asveikau wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like another comment I can think of examples without a liquid following. "Latin" is one. (I have a distant memory of being called strange for saying that as [t]) I think I sometimes only do it if I'm talking fast. Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign.

The "t" in "Latin" is just a glottal stop for me. Using [t] sounds vaguely British to my ears. Same goes for other words that end in "t" + unstressed "en," e.g. "fatten," "batten."

That's a tad ironic because British people are some of the biggest users of glottal stops for /t/.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#98

Post by lhorie »

A discussion of Portuguese Rs wouldn't be complete without at least a mention of Jimmy Five[0] (aka Cebolinha), a character in the Monica's Gang cartoon.

> Due to dyslalia, Jimmy Five is incapable of pronouncing the letter "r", replacing it with the letter l, in the Portuguese version, or with the letter w, in the English version. When the letter is used at the end of a word, however, he pronounces it normally (as in "car" or "locker").

What is fascinating about this cartoon is how diverse it is. I'd be hard pressed to name any other publication where one of the main characters has a speech impairment (which is often used to make jokes and puns), and that has side characters with various other disabilities, notably Hummer (Humberto), who's mute, and more recently Luca, a wheelchair-bound yet physically active boy. The cartoon isn't afraid of running stories about touchy topics like disability challenges, nor of using these topics for lighthearted comical effects.

It also pretty much single-handedly exposed generations of Brazilians to Guarani indigenous culture (e.g. what Monica fan doesn't know what Tupã[1] is), and frequently publishes stories about ecology preservation and morality.

IMHO, it's one of the best examples of minority representation in mainstream media done right.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Five

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tup%C3%A3_(mythology)

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#99

Post by SwiftyBug »

soneca wrote: post #22

My name is Rodrigo and I work remotely for an american company with only American teammates. When I say my name I pronounce the way Americans would pronounce it to simplify communication, but it always feels a little phony. Like I am making up a nickname that’s actually not mine to a new group. Not anything that bothers me, just a curiosity of global remote work and our R.

To me names are simply not translatable. A name is not a word, is a sound we associate with our selves. The Americanized form of "Rodrigo" is not the sound you associate with your self I'd too feel weird to introduce myself trying to emulate an accent.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#100

Post by asveikau »

School-Cotton wrote: post #94
asveikau wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like another comment I can think of examples without a liquid following. "Latin" is one. (I have a distant memory of being called strange for saying that as [t]) I think I sometimes only do it if I'm talking fast. Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign.

For me the /t/ in Latin is a glottal stop. Where are you from? > Pronouncing it as [t] isn't often outside the acceptable range, or something that makes you sound too foreign. I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure someone pronouncing the /t/ in "butter", "little", etc. as [t] would make me very confident that they weren't American.

> Where are you from?

I was born in Washington DC to a family that had recent roots all over Europe. And had some young interest and exposure to Spanish. I'm American, but my accent is a little all over the place.

I don't get much grief over this in the northeast, but on the west coast people are pretty confused by the way I talk.

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