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The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

ucl.ac.uk

61–70 of 85 posts

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Food and shelter are abundant." Only because somebody made them by working Monday to Friday. That somebody could make less by working Monday to Tuesday. Food and shelter would be less abundant and the person currently working a full week to produce the surplus would instead have the rest of the week to themselves. The productivity, and the free time, would accrue to those expending the effort of production - as mora…

the wealth piled up with people like elon musk and jeff bezos indicate this is not what is being solved or handled here. The 188b$ of Bezos and 264b$ of Musk are clearly not dedicated to providing me with hamburgers and sleeping quarters. If I divided those 452b$ amongst 334m americans, I'd get around 1300$ per head. Though net worth is not the same as yearly income, I note that Musk's 264b$ represent 5.600 times the…

> What we currently have, and have had for most of human history, is feudalism under many different names.

True.

Though this is the only stable outcome.

Even in communist country there are positions of power (which can be symbolically equated to lords).

Given group of people there is hierarchy. Given selfishness, people tend to use control to ensure more control.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#62
post #59
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'd rather have everyone fed, clothed, housed and medically taken care of than having a low chance of "winning"." I think this is creating a false dichotomy by implying that it's a foregone conclusion that a soup kitchen style of government would be able to support everyone. "How can I enjoy a steak without thinking about whether or not this animal had a good life? It died so i may eat it, but why did it live in the…

> I think this is creating a false dichotomy by implying that it's a foregone conclusion that a soup kitchen style of government would be able to support everyone. uh, soup kitchen style of government? how about no government at all? just to clarify: for me communism is the antiauthoritarian leftism that is in the bottom left of the political compass. top left?: stalinism&maoism, top right?: nazigermany, quarter-to-t…

But we understand that life is full of struggle and death, yet we have children.

"Distancing ourselfs from eachother by using money to measure the value of every interaction... "

That's a choice. One can always volunteer. It seems human nature will always find some way to measure value transfer, or at least determine if someone is worthy of the "free" service. I think we see this in libertarian communities - most people contribute, but freeloaders could be labeled as such.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#63
post #5

I was again, arguing about work on reddit. Someone said that even animals "work" to survive. I found that the comparison was not really good. Food and shelter are abundant. Technology improved the human condition, but it made humans be much much less social, which is the main cause of inequalities. The individual car/kitchen/living room/bathroom generate exclusion. I'm an introvert, I want to have my safe space, but…

A worker should be able to exchange skill for a task that needs to be done. Work is a good thing. In the best possible case, work is a safe, useful, purposeful behaviour that benefits the employer, the workers, and society.

> it made humans be much much less social, which is the main cause of inequalities

Freedom from prejudice is a fine principle -- I fully support modern law. But people are not all "equal", they have different abilities. And some people hold wealth and information for the purpose of control. It goes without saying that corruption, cronyism, propaganda and violence are social anti-patterns.

A just, accountable, fair, transparent system ("JAFTS") will pay people for the value of their work and skill. There will be useful work to do, and training to do the work.

An intelligent social system will invest in people and reward good work.

A compassionate social system will also care for all people's well-being. It is a smart investment.

History tells us not to expect that a dictatorship, oligarchy, or mob rule will achieve sufficient cultural enlightenment. So we fight these tendencies with democracy, education, and workers' rights.

Unless of course the socio-economic structure is unenlightened or stumbling towards something worse. In a dictatorship or oligarchy, either the power structure wins or the people revolt. History also tells us that people have enough sense to fight for food and shelter.

In a democracy, people must want to protect the principles of democratic society.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#64
post #5

I was again, arguing about work on reddit. Someone said that even animals "work" to survive. I found that the comparison was not really good. Food and shelter are abundant. Technology improved the human condition, but it made humans be much much less social, which is the main cause of inequalities. The individual car/kitchen/living room/bathroom generate exclusion. I'm an introvert, I want to have my safe space, but…

A worker should be able to exchange skill for a task that needs to be done. Work is a good thing. In the best possible case, work is a safe, useful, purposeful behaviour that benefits the employer, the workers, and society. > it made humans be much much less social, which is the main cause of inequalities Freedom from prejudice is a fine principle -- I fully support modern law. But people are not all "equal", they ha…

> But people are not all "equal", they have different abilities.

'Equal' in that context is used to mean 'equal in moral worth'. No one, obviously, is saying that all human beings in the world are identical in every respect.

This discussion comes about because there are implicit moral principles we hold: (i) that people should not be punished without fault, and (ii) that people are not at fault for things over which they have no control. Our economic system self-evidently does punish people for things over which they have no control: their intelligence, their talents, their work ethic, and so forth.

I don't personally feel that that's problematic – I think its faults are outweighed by its benefits – but I understand why some people do. And it's certainly not as simple as the absurd caricature that they believe all human beings are exactly the same as one another.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work already is not mandatory. Anyone is free to figure out other ways to get food and shelter.

I think this is overlooking the main argument - having someone waste time by getting their own food/shelter isn't really any better than having them waste time doing a job to get money for food/shelter. We would likely be better off not wasting people's time and just giving them food/shelter so they are free to figure out how to best use that time

Giving someone food and shelter implies that someone else must work to provide that. Food doesn't materialize like it does on Star Trek.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Food and shelter are abundant." Only because somebody made them by working Monday to Friday. That somebody could make less by working Monday to Tuesday. Food and shelter would be less abundant and the person currently working a full week to produce the surplus would instead have the rest of the week to themselves. The productivity, and the free time, would accrue to those expending the effort of production - as mora…

I think you're sneaking in some assumptions here that people just develop these skills within themselves and have the same opportunity to do so as anyone else. If you start the clock with them already having those skills and other people not then it makes sense, but they ultimately owe all of that back to the society that gave them those skills. However you end up is a combination of genes and environment - neither o…

> If someone has a great idea that can double food production - they owe all the money and food to the society because they would not have had the idea or been able to implement it otherwise.

I don't see why this makes any more sense than "they owe it all to the singularity that started the Big Bang, because it wouldn't have happened otherwise". Or, for that matter, anything in between. Kids, this is your brain on bad counterfactual reasoning. Look for proximate causes: in other words, necessary and sufficient conditions.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#67
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Currently we organise our Lords through capitalism. And that's how I want it. I may have a low chance of winning but nobody argues against my right to throw my hat in the ring if I want to rise above my station. Nobody but the anticapitalists that is.

That's what they want you to believe, but your hat needs to be at least THIS big in order to not just evaporate when it lands in the ring. Good luck playing against the house. I'd much rather demolish this casino and put up a soupkitchen instead. I'd rather have everyone fed, clothed, housed and medically taken care of than having a low chance of "winning". What do you win anyways? Can you hug your profits? Can they…

I believe you want to demolish the casino. I don't believe you want to build a soup kitchen. I don't even believe you volunteer at a soup kitchen now, because I've met people who volunteer at soup kitchens and you sound nothing like them.

As to what I'd do if I 'won', it's funny you ask since I spent this morning thinking about just that. For one, I think that a lot of contaminated land, including spent mining sites, could be slowly rehabilitated by growing the right plants and fungi on them, possibly even harvesting some of the leftover valuable minerals and rendering harmless the toxic ones, providing inexpensive housing to people acting as a caretaker, producing rejuvenation in an expanding network of locations. For another, a lot of energy is being put into cleaning plastic out of the oceans but there is still not a lot of thought being put into what to do with the result. I believe that with the right templates, it would be possible to clean plastic out of the ocean and build large rafts for seasteading-style projects. With the proper designs I suspect it would even be possible to make these rafts a suitable habitat for marine life, increasing local biodiversity and saving the expense of hauling waste plastic from the ocean to a landfill on a continent.

I have other visions of a better world, but if I achieve even one of these I'll consider mine a life well lived. The thing is, I'm not naive as to how unrealistic these visions sound or how difficult they would be to realise. If the decision were made by reasonable bureaucrats in a world where their mandate is minimal starvation, I might as well give up. There is exactly one human being on earth insane enough to think these visions are worth pursuing. THAT is why I'm invested in winning. THAT is what you want to take away from me, and from everyone else who's ever had an insane vision of a better future.

You say you want to see the world burn. That sounds to me like the mindset of a man in a warband, and warbands get resources by taking them from their neighbours. It's always the farmers and craftspeople who suffer most when that way of thinking takes over, and I consider myself a small producer, so it should come as no surprise that I'm hostile to your way of thinking. I truly believe that if you burned the world as you imagine, you'd have taken over my house and the small food forest my family has grown, and either shot or enslaved me, long before you ever made a dent in the barricades of the billionaires that justify your rhetoric. I believe that because that's been what happened historically, and because if your goal was really to build a soup kitchen you wouldn't feel the need to set the world on fire first.

I'd like to close with an appeal to your humanity, because despite my belief that a small producer like myself is always the first target of warbands and warband-thinking, I don't begrudge the instinct or its necessity to the human spirit. If you believe in anarchist-socialism and want to fight, there is an experiment with that kind of government happening right now in Rojava, the Kurdish autonomous zone in Northern Syria. They are actively looking for people to join their cause, and from what I know of their system it seems like it could actually succeed without devolving into Stalinism. If you lent your effort to that, it would be an alignment of what your intellectual, moral, and instinctive stances seem to be. Please just consider it, and if the answer is 'no' then it would be worth aligning the reasons why with what you want for your immediate sphere.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#69
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what they want you to believe, but your hat needs to be at least THIS big in order to not just evaporate when it lands in the ring. Good luck playing against the house. I'd much rather demolish this casino and put up a soupkitchen instead. I'd rather have everyone fed, clothed, housed and medically taken care of than having a low chance of "winning". What do you win anyways? Can you hug your profits? Can they…

I believe you want to demolish the casino. I don't believe you want to build a soup kitchen. I don't even believe you volunteer at a soup kitchen now, because I've met people who volunteer at soup kitchens and you sound nothing like them. As to what I'd do if I 'won', it's funny you ask since I spent this morning thinking about just that. For one, I think that a lot of contaminated land, including spent mining sites,…

Thank you for this, I appreciated reading it. It's depressing to see how many people's vision of the world is fundamentally negative and opposed to letting human beings live freely and flourish according to their own hopes and dreams.

That being said, I think the problem is that the pro-freedom side hasn't put forth a sufficiently convincing argument. Ridiculous Elon Musk fanboys should not be the representatives for freedom. We shouldn't be noted for contradictorily turning a blind eye to bailouts and rebates with expropriated money, as well as to police violence towards minorities, and for seemingly being more concerned with taking the last scraps of support from the poor rather than opposing the kleptarchic defence contractors and so forth.

We need to make the case that a freer society would mean less money taken from the poor and given to the rich, and less opportunity to get rich on monopolies enforced by state power, such as inappropriately excessive patent rights and copyrights, which are not just intuitively morally unfair but also antithetical to the principle that a competitive market provides a selection pressure for better ideas. If we can't put forward a convincing argument and be consistent in our principles, it's our own damn fault and we should quit whining about it.

Re: The Philosophy of Work [pdf]

#70
post #62
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this is creating a false dichotomy by implying that it's a foregone conclusion that a soup kitchen style of government would be able to support everyone. uh, soup kitchen style of government? how about no government at all? just to clarify: for me communism is the antiauthoritarian leftism that is in the bottom left of the political compass. top left?: stalinism&maoism, top right?: nazigermany, quarter-to-t…

But we understand that life is full of struggle and death, yet we have children. "Distancing ourselfs from eachother by using money to measure the value of every interaction... " That's a choice. One can always volunteer. It seems human nature will always find some way to measure value transfer, or at least determine if someone is worthy of the "free" service. I think we see this in libertarian communities - most peo…

> But we understand that life is full of struggle and death, yet we have children.

yeah, because life is also full of beauty.

As to that choice: Sure, you just don't see many banks in volunteering in letting go of a debtor ;)

If I had the time, I would.

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