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The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

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Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#41

Post by nwatson »

pelasaco wrote: post #17

"Take this with a grain of salt, because I am not as familiar with the European dialect." Actually as expected in Portugal, they have many dialects too. There are four main Portuguese dialect groups, all mutually intelligible: Central, or Beira, Southern (Estremenho), including Lisbon, Alentejo, and Algarve, Insular, including the dialects of Madeira and the Azores. There is even an extinct one, https://en.wikipedia.…

I can't imagine any two English accents as far apart from each other as are the Portuguese accents of "standard Globo TV presenter in Brazil" and that of the Azores.

I grew up on and off in Brazil (Rio de Janeiro and Brasília) and later spent 20+ years in the SF Bay Area. Once in a while I'd run into old-school Azoreans who'd lived in the Portuguese towns (Santa Clara, Newark, San Leandro, Half Moon Bay, Pescadero, Castro Valley) for a few generations and it was almost impossible to understand them until I started listening occasionally to the Bay Area Portuguese radio station. I'd mimic those accents and got a bit better at understanding those folks, but with cost/benefit ... Brazilians have said I now sound Portuguese, and Portuguese people say they can understand my Portuguese better than a normal Brazilian's.

I'm not sure how it's changed in the last decade, but in many SF Bay Area and Central Valley towns there are Portuguese "Sociedade do Espirito Santo" (Holy Spirit Society) halls and Catholic churches where Portuguese/Azoreans maintain their traditional festivals and music.

I think Neto's shut down its huge Santa Clara restaurant/market and reincarnated in a strip-mall/sausage-making operation, but at least a couple years ago you could still go and get an excellent Linguiça sandwich.

EDIT: Sociedade Espirito Santo, Neto's

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#42

Post by soneca »

Kaze404 wrote: post #31
soneca wrote: post #22

My name is Rodrigo and I work remotely for an american company with only American teammates. When I say my name I pronounce the way Americans would pronounce it to simplify communication, but it always feels a little phony. Like I am making up a nickname that’s actually not mine to a new group. Not anything that bothers me, just a curiosity of global remote work and our R.

"Rod" might work as a suitable nickname, since it's also used for names like Roderick (which sounds eerily similar to Rodrigo now that I think about it).

No one calls me Rod, I am not comfortable creating an actual nickname. I am happy enough just changing the pronunciation

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#43

Post by diego_moita »

darkwater wrote: post #37
diego_moita wrote: post #19

Scottish people can pronounce the same sound! When you say "Loch Ness" with a very thick Scottish accent, the "ch" in loch is quite close to it. Also the sound is quite common in other languages: "roi" in French, "reisen" in German, ... Even some Spanish dialects like Galego have the same r. Only Castilian/normal Spanish doesn't have it. OTOH, just ask a Brazilian to pronounce simply "the". The "th" phoneme is quite…

> Even some Spanish dialects like Galego have the same r You are opening a can of worms here considering that Galego is officialy a language, not a dialect, and it's basically very very similar to Portoguese, up to a point in which a galician colleague of mine, when we were at a conference in the USA would talk in Galego with a couple of Brazilian guys and they talked to him in Brazilian Portoguese and they went alon…

> You are opening a can of worms here considering that Galego is officialy a language, not a dialect, and it's basically very very similar to Portoguese,

True, you are right. I stand corrected.

The difference between a language and a dialect is often just politics.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#44

Post by marcodiego »

diego_moita wrote: post #19

Scottish people can pronounce the same sound! When you say "Loch Ness" with a very thick Scottish accent, the "ch" in loch is quite close to it. Also the sound is quite common in other languages: "roi" in French, "reisen" in German, ... Even some Spanish dialects like Galego have the same r. Only Castilian/normal Spanish doesn't have it. OTOH, just ask a Brazilian to pronounce simply "the". The "th" phoneme is quite…

People from Northeast inland will pronounce "breadee peetee".

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#46

Post by Rygian »

StephenSmith wrote: post #33

I took some Spanish in school but my most notable experience attempting to learn (Brazilian) Portuguese as a native English speaker was hearing the difference between the names José and Roberto. There's the quintessentially, native-English-speaking pronunciation of José with a hard J. With Spanish, the J is obviously silent, or extremely soft, but in Brazilian Portuguese (I can't speak for other forms), you pronounce…

As a Spaniard, I am confused by the "the J is obviously silent". The most neutral pronunciation of José in Spain (the one you would hear in Spanish broadcast news) is indeed /xo'se/.

Spanish is extremely rich in pronunciation variations, due to the large population spread over several continents, so in most cases when you observe something about "Spanish" you need to focus on a specific region or dialect, for the observation to have a proper context.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#47

Post by throwaway599281 »

samueloph wrote: post #45

If you're interested in Portuguese in general, I suggest listening to Azorean Portuguese. It's so different it sounds like a different language to most Brazilians (and I assume to other nationalities as well), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7efyRaaTUU

There are certain interviews to Azoreans that require subtitles to be added, otherwise nobody from the mainland will understand anything that they're saying due to a very thick accent.

But as far as I know it's due to the colonization of the islands with both Portuguese people and people from the low countries.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#48

Post by cassianoleal »

StephenSmith wrote: post #33

I took some Spanish in school but my most notable experience attempting to learn (Brazilian) Portuguese as a native English speaker was hearing the difference between the names José and Roberto. There's the quintessentially, native-English-speaking pronunciation of José with a hard J. With Spanish, the J is obviously silent, or extremely soft, but in Brazilian Portuguese (I can't speak for other forms), you pronounce…

The R in Roberto can be soft like a Spanish J, or it can be pretty hard, albeit with the back of tongue bouncing off the palate rather than the tip, depending on many factors - local accent, the speaker's mood or energy level, etc. Mind you, to us it will still be the same phoneme, just at different "softness" levels.

In other accents, the tip of the tongue is used in the same fashion as in Spanish. This is especially present in border regions.

In other regions, that R is a single hit of the tip of the tongue, especially around Italian and German colony regions, similar to what a single R in the middle of a word typically sounds in Portuguese.

Re: The enigmatic Portuguese R (2013)

#49

Post by soneca »

samueloph wrote: post #35
soneca wrote: post #22

My name is Rodrigo and I work remotely for an american company with only American teammates. When I say my name I pronounce the way Americans would pronounce it to simplify communication, but it always feels a little phony. Like I am making up a nickname that’s actually not mine to a new group. Not anything that bothers me, just a curiosity of global remote work and our R.

I used to do the same for "Samuel" but figured I'm happier saying my name the correct way when asked instead of having that weird feeling. I don't mind if people say it differently with their accents or don't try to say it like I do, but it's nice when somebody says it correctly. "correct pronunciation" to me, in terms of names, roughly means the pronunciation that that person grew with (so it's about where they're f…

I thought about it, and I don’t think I would be happier not changing the pronunciation. This weird feeling is very minor, just a matter of curiosity, not something that bothers me.

And one key difference is the said Portuguese R. It’s trickier than Samuel variations. I think a lot of people would not understand what my name is at all if I pronounce it the way we do it in Brazil.

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