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Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

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Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#251

Post by nec4b »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #183
kleiba wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two years, 16+mio deaths. Total covid deaths, a bit over 5 mio. I don't get it. You're arguing against government interventions because of relatively low fatality numbers. Yet, the fact that these numbers are not higher is a direct outcome of the world-wide vaccination campaigns. Don't you think you got it backwards?

I'm saying that we violated many basic human rights because of a disease that killed 5 mio people, citing those deaths as reasons to violate all the basic righs, while we're unwilling to violate a relatively minor right (to smoke), to save even more lives. If you're saying we need a cufrew, because covid killed X people, but are not willing to ban the sale of cigarettes, even though they kill 3.2*X people, you're doi…

Covid kills X people because of the restrictions, otherwise it would kill N*X people, where N would be a lot higher number than 3.2 because of the secondary problems like hospitals overflowing.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#252

Post by alkonaut »

ls15 wrote: post #249
alkonaut wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, what I am saying is that mandating them is a stupid idea. Everyone should be free to do a personal benefit/risk assessment before undergoing any medical procedure. And I absolutely agree. Apart from specific situations (e.g healthcare workers) no one should be required to get the vaccine. But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very speci…

> But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very specific activity that people can just choose to not do. Sure, it’s his job - but such is life. I don't think that makes sense. If you cannot see your family again without vaccination, that is a clear mandate to me. If it is not based on clear scientific evidence that shows that there was no better…

> If you cannot see your family again without vaccination, that is a clear mandate to me.

That makes it a bit of a gray area. "Mandated" as in "you have to take it" is one thing (which few states would hopefully ever try) or "Mandated to do X" is a different thing. Then how much overreach is involved really depends on what X is. Working in hospital? Very reasonable. Attending university? Well, that was always a thing. Crossing borders - this was also always a thing.

> If it is not based on clear scientific evidence that shows that there was no better option, then the mandate is arbitrary. Arbitrary mandates are tyrannical.

One can argue that almost all restrictions during the pandemic had to be based on very shaky science because there simply isn't time to first await the science and then make the decision. And there are surely a lot of restrictions that are much worse to have, than vaccine mandate for immigration. Shutting down schools or banning gatherings, for example.

> then that mandate was arbitrary and hence tyrannical.

Yeah I mean I don't necessarily agree with all the restrictions around the world and got knows Australia has the most shitty immigration politics on the planet - even outside the pandemic. But what I do think is that they should have the right to have whatever restrictions they want (even tyrannical ones) and there isn't much to do about it.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#253

Post by DonHopkins »

ls15 wrote: post #231
DonHopkins wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also runs the risk of being stabbed on the court during a match by a deranged fan of his opponent like Monica Seles was, or taking an errant serve directly in the groin then getting knocked backwards and striking his head on the hardcourt surface like Dick Wertheim did. So what? Tennis is a dangerous sport. Get used to it. https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/tennis-star-moni... https://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

What would you think about mandatory tennis then?

Squid Game Tennis!

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#254

Post by ls15 »

alkonaut wrote: post #252
ls15 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But requiring it for crossing borders or playing in a tennis tournament isn’t a mandate. It’s a requirement for a very specific activity that people can just choose to not do. Sure, it’s his job - but such is life. I don't think that makes sense. If you cannot see your family again without vaccination, that is a clear mandate to me. If it is not based on clear scientific evidence that shows that there was no better…

> If you cannot see your family again without vaccination, that is a clear mandate to me. That makes it a bit of a gray area. "Mandated" as in "you have to take it" is one thing (which few states would hopefully ever try) or "Mandated to do X" is a different thing. Then how much overreach is involved really depends on what X is. Working in hospital? Very reasonable. Attending university? Well, that was always a thing…

> One can argue that almost all restrictions during the pandemic had to be based on very shaky science because there simply isn't time to first await the science and then make the decision. And there are surely a lot of restrictions that are much worse to have, than vaccine mandate for immigration. Shutting down schools or banning gatherings, for example.

That's my point. People are basing a witch-hunt on unscientific thinking in 2021 on arguments that are not based on solid science. It does not look good and I think that historians will talk a lot about that.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#255

Post by lr1970 »

sofixa wrote: post #128
ruszki wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that national interests really mattered anytime in any country. That is just a tool to keep power. Maybe it's important for some politician, but focusing on power grab is way more beneficial at the top.

There's no need to be so pessimistic. Plenty of people go into politics with good intentions, and some even stay that way after some time there. Some want to be remembered, some genuinely want to fix things. Some just want power. Skepticism is healthy, full on pessimism "everything is just a power grab" is extremely unhealthy.

> Plenty of people go into politics with good intentions, and some even stay that way after some time there

Politics is a highly competitive game. Those who do not optimize for maximizing their power and carrier advances are operating at a disadvantage.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#256

Post by dale_glass »

ls15 wrote: post #250
dale_glass wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why unfair conditions? It's just Djokovic being stupid. Vaccination has long been a requirement for admission into countries, and Covid isn't a new event either. The only new things going on here is Djovokic being public about it, and some minor bureaucratic issues, other than that it's very much business as usual. But in any case I don't have an opinion on the tournament, I don't watch those anyway. It's up to them…

I asked multiple people in this thread, what the scientific argument is for mandating that Djokovic gets vaccinated before being able to participate, given his specific situation and what we know about vaccine efficacy (especially since Omicron) and side effects (especially in his cohort) to this date. Nobody was able to answer this question sufficiently so far. If there is no sufficient scientific basis for such a m…

There's no need for any scientific argument, really. Australia is a sovereign country that controls under what conditions they allow people to come in, and is perfectly free to ask people to stand on their head for 5 minutes as an entry condition, if they want to. Look into your own country's visa terms, it's by no means trivial to get in somewhere, and it often requires satisfying some requirements that are not at all scientific. Eg:

https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/PDF-other/DS-160-...

Interesting questions start on page 33.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#257

Post by medo-bear »

sofixa wrote: post #128
ruszki wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that national interests really mattered anytime in any country. That is just a tool to keep power. Maybe it's important for some politician, but focusing on power grab is way more beneficial at the top.

There's no need to be so pessimistic. Plenty of people go into politics with good intentions, and some even stay that way after some time there. Some want to be remembered, some genuinely want to fix things. Some just want power. Skepticism is healthy, full on pessimism "everything is just a power grab" is extremely unhealthy.

>Skepticism is healthy, full on pessimism "everything is just a power grab" is extremely unhealthy

I agree but lets extend this same treatment not just to Westerners but to Eastern people too, otherwise it is just hypocrisy. I say this because the top comment on a previous post about Djokovic claims that his PCR test is genuine not because he was really positive with Covid, but because his family is influential with the Serbian government. This sort of prejudice and discrimination is plain disgusting

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#258

Post by nexxer »

MrRiddle wrote: post #234
Arisaka1 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a Serbian who used to be a fan of Djokovic in spite of the fact that I'm not big into tennis, but after losing a family member to Covid seeing him deciding to die on the anti-vax hill broke my heart and I don't want anything to do with him.

I’m Serbian as well and I haven’t heard him say any anti-vaxx statement. It’s more of a result of witch-hunt than him actually being anti-vaxx. Another thing is, why he needs a vaccine? He had Covid, giving him long lasting immunity. Vaccines stop the spread at the same level or even less than Covid immunity, so what’s the point? Just politics, there’s absolutely no reason for someone like him to risk myocarditis, he…

He's had covid twice, once in June 2020 and now in December 2021, a good example of immunity by infection not being worth much.

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#259

Post by alkonaut »

ls15 wrote: post #240
alkonaut wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, I didn't know there was a formal definition of "extremely rare" vs. "rare". But it's "about equally rare" between vax and infection for the healthiest group, and rare for all groups. This is why I think it's so weird to avoid the vaccine due to that risk. It's not like people taking the vax are spinning a roulette wheel with 1/10000 risk of complication, and if they reject the vaccine they don't need to…

The roulette wheel is being spun with every injection. I think this aspect is underrepresented too. Having three jabs means having a 1/n chance three times, with varying n each time. We are not only talking about vaccine mandates, but also booster mandates. The basis for these is even thinner, because especially since Omicron, the benefit/risk ratio is even worse. The risk has not changed, while the benefits just vis…

> The roulette wheel is being spun with every injection.

Yes - as with any medication. But my point is, it's some times seen as being a roulette wheel with the vaccine but no one mentions the elephant in the room which is that the side effects are at worst much more common, and at best about equal, with infection. Basically if you don't get vaccinated, you are spinning a worse roulette wheel.

> The basis for these is even thinner, because especially since Omicron, the benefit/risk ratio is even worse. The risk has not changed, while the benefits just visibly decreased.

There are three levels of risk here. Individual risk, group risk (protecting people in a more vulnerable group, for example), and societal risk (preventing spread, or limiting the damage to publically funded healthcare by limiting your own risk). Now with omicron, the individual risk for a healthy 30 year old is obviously way down. The societal risk from the disease is very high due to infectivity (staff shortages etc), and the group risk is also rather high as the disease is still pretty bad for the oldest age group, especially without boosters.

But even so: vaccines aren't only about individual risk. And vaccine mandates aren't only acceptable when it's a net positive to the individual! On the contrary, when it's a net positive, they may not even be needed - people have incentive enough to get vaccinated anyway!

Mandating vaccines despite unclear individual benefit (and to be clear its STILL very much a solid benefit even for healthy recovered young people, but for the sake of argument) is no easy ethical problem. The answer to that has been different in different countries, or even within countries (e.g. some countries have had varying degrees of mandates for adult vaccine but not even approved it for healthy young chilren because the individual risk is too low).

Re: Novak Djokovic's Visa Cancelled by Australian Minister for Immigration

#260

Post by manicdee »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #155
askvictor wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the issue of the immigration department seemingly not properly scrutinizing the application, as well as Djokovic lying on the application forms. But most likely this is all an intentionally concocted distraction from government's failings in the current outbreak.

So how did he win his first court challenge? Why aren't those institutions being scrutinized? Where's the proof he faked his documents and why isn't that alone cause for Australia's institutions to not have issued a visa? Why did it take a last-minute act from a minister to revoke his visa?

Some of the proof that he faked his visa application is claiming he is vaccinated when he is not, and claiming he had not travelled in the week before boarding the plane when he had documented a trip to Spain while COVID-positive. The Spanish government is now investigating whether Novak Djokovic travelled to Spain illegally, so there’s more legal shenanigans waiting for him when he eventually gets home.

The reason none of this resulted in his visa being refused in the first place is that the Australian tennis folks are buddy-buddy with the Prime Minister’s folks, and the unofficial ministerial guidelines are that if there’s an event associated with government cronies then all stops are pulled.

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