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Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

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Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#111

Post by southerntofu »

mastazi wrote: post #69

In Italy, the same service was called Videotel[0] and the terminals were sold by the state-owned phone company, Sip. there was a model where the keyboard would slide out from under the CRT screen[1], and another model where the hinged keyboard would fold onto the screen (similar to a laptop keyboard, except in this case it's the keyboard that folds up, not the screen that folds down)[2]. I remember in my area some pu…

IRC chatrooms, PUBNIXes and forums are alive and well. Just because half the Internet has moved to Facebook/Discord and uploaded a profile picture doesn't mean you can't have profound pseudonymous communications with random people on the other side of the globe anymore.

Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#112

Post by southerntofu »

npunt wrote: post #95

This reminds me of the Nortel Displayphone [1], a similar all-in-one computer with 1200bps modem and keyboard. By the time I got mine from a friend in ~1992 it was already way outclassed by PCs, but I loved the hardware integration and the alt-future it suggested. I used it to log into a few BBSes before getting bored with the slow speed and amber monochrome screen. If I'd been older & had one in the early/mid 80s I'…

Where do you live? Don't you think some folks from your neighborhood would appreciate some local services? A local goods exchange (craigslist-like), a local chatroom, and a local media library full of movies and documentaries? It makes even more sense if you can do it on LAN, which can be an incentive to develop your own local ISP (which you should do for other more serious political reasons anyway)... :-)

Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#113

Post by glandium »

southerntofu wrote: post #105
glandium wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You only had to pay for the usage Worth noting there were free services too. The most notable was the white/yellow pages at number 11 (later 36 11), although it was only free for the first 3 minutes, but it usually didn't take that long to find what you wanted. Or if it did, you could just reset the connection.

If i remember well, you still had to pay for the phone call to the service, even if the service itself was "free".

IIRC, 11 was fully free, including the phone call. Edit: I think the vocal equivalent (where you had an actual person at the other end, that could even connect you to the number you were asking for, was free too)

Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#114

Post by southerntofu »

dmix wrote: post #47
elvis70 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Hughes watched it at the festival of Cannes in 1989, after this article (in French): https://www.bfmtv.com/people/3615-code-pere-noel-le-film-fra...

This has always been a great business idea. Watch good foreign films and spin them into Americanized versions then pitch them to Hollywood. Also I find it amusing that Home Alone in France is titled "Mom, I missed the plane"

> Watch good foreign films and spin them into Americanized versions

That's the entire history of Hollywood and american music industry. Those businesses who wouldn't like us to share made their fortunes on entirely borrowed things from other cultures. Many of the great revered american singers copied note-for-note traditional african songs, for example.

Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#115

Post by southerntofu »

glandium wrote: post #93
miki123211 wrote: post #6

Let's not forget that Minitel couldn't be as great as it was if not for its complete and utter centralization. Sometimes having twenty slightly different services that are blocked from interoperating for the sake of some abstract notion of privacy isn't that great after all.

It was not, in fact, totally centralized. In the early 90s, my middle school had a server that you could phone into to get the weather (I don't quite remember if it was a full forecast or not, I think it was), and that server was managed by a Maths teacher and students who would enter the school ½h/1h earlier to grab the data and update the page. I guess you could say that was my first experience as what would later…

It was still centralized in the sense that you had to connect to a server because a Minitel had no computing and no storage (so no p2p). Benjamin Bayart's "Internet libre ou Minitel 2.0?" goes to great length to explain the consequences of that.

Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#116

Post by jacquesm »

southerntofu wrote: post #106
cm2187 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it solved a problem I’d argue the internet hasn’t solved yet: how to charge users securely, easily and for small amounts. The way it did that is through your phone bill, since the minitel was using your phone line. No credit card number to enter (and be hacked), no credentials to enter. Of course it also meant kids had access to it…

Because the phone network can't be hacked, perhaps? Also in my views, that something cannot be monetized is a feature, not a bug: trying to monetize WWW/email is precisely what led to the horrors we know today of mass advertisement and surveillance.

> Because the phone network can't be hacked, perhaps?

No comment.

Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#117

Post by southerntofu »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #42
miki123211 wrote: post #6

Let's not forget that Minitel couldn't be as great as it was if not for its complete and utter centralization. Sometimes having twenty slightly different services that are blocked from interoperating for the sake of some abstract notion of privacy isn't that great after all.

Minitel was probably subject to substantial government regulation, unlike the "tech" companies that dominate the web and overinfluence the internet. Minitel was probably funded at least in part through taxation. Certainly, Minitel was not a secretive Silicon Valley-styled company with dual class shares or other entrenching governance structures, that allow for concentration of voting power in the hands of company ins…

> It seems the French do not have the same hatred of telecom that Amercians do.

Oh yes we do. France Telecom back in the day wasn't all that bad, but the prices were crazy: copper is expensive but not so much that you should pay every month dozens of francs (before the euro, don't remember the exact number) without even paying for usage. But at least from what i remember tech support and intervention times were decent before the Internet, then came Wanadoo and then the privatization of France Télécom into Orange and now we have shitty service like everyone else.

Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#118

Post by efrecon »

topicseed wrote: post #72
josefrichter wrote: post #67

Is there a place in France, probably a technical museum, where one can still try functional Minitel terminal? Or maybe an online "demo"?

http://3611.re/ to have a feel

This is great! Fully functional and works (as in: is able to look up people and their numbers). Brings back old fond memories!

Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#119

Post by blablabla123 »

jacquesm wrote: post #5

If anything it was so far ahead of the early web that it hindered adoption of the WWW in France. It was incredibly good and rich, many services that could be used by non-technical people and had a built in monetization system for information providers. It took at least until 1996 before the web could compete and by that time France reluctantly started to let go of their beloved tiny terminals. It took until 2012 (!!)…

Actually it was similar in Germany with BTX. But also during the time where it was reasonably usable (~'96) it was way faster and cheaper than going on the Internet. BTX was shut down in 2007 though

Re: Minitel: The Online World France Built Before the Web (2017)

#120

Post by cm2187 »

southerntofu wrote: post #106
cm2187 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it solved a problem I’d argue the internet hasn’t solved yet: how to charge users securely, easily and for small amounts. The way it did that is through your phone bill, since the minitel was using your phone line. No credit card number to enter (and be hacked), no credentials to enter. Of course it also meant kids had access to it…

Because the phone network can't be hacked, perhaps? Also in my views, that something cannot be monetized is a feature, not a bug: trying to monetize WWW/email is precisely what led to the horrors we know today of mass advertisement and surveillance.

It is because it cannot be monetised that we have mass advertisements. Some websites would be viable economically without advertising if they could seaminglessly charge a modest amount to customers.
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