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If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

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Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#51

Post by nkassis »

georgemcbay wrote: post #43
0x12 wrote: post #24

If you have a life, I don't want you. If you have a family, I don't want you. If you have enough energy to do your work but not enough energy that after work you can work some more, I don't want you. What is it that makes employers so enamored of people with 'pet projects'? Are they easier to take advantage of? Do they work long hours without expecting compensation? Does not having dependents mean that it's easier to…

The worst side-effect of this is actually "If you were really passionate about your last job, I don't want you." I have old pet projects from times when my work at previous jobs was interesting but not all-consuming. The work I do for my current employer is so interesting and fun to me in so many ways that when I have spare coding time on non-work-hours, I'm still working on these work projects. My work projects are…

I'm in the same boat as you, I got assigned to work on a project that keeps me really interested and my side projects right now are basically research and experimentation that might be useful for my main work project.

Looking at projects like Ruby on Rails, Node.js and others like it where the creator created for work reason.

Or look at Linus, his side project was Git. It was something he needed for work.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#52

Post by pdubs »

Aloisius wrote: post #26
0x12 wrote: post #24

If you have a life, I don't want you. If you have a family, I don't want you. If you have enough energy to do your work but not enough energy that after work you can work some more, I don't want you. What is it that makes employers so enamored of people with 'pet projects'? Are they easier to take advantage of? Do they work long hours without expecting compensation? Does not having dependents mean that it's easier to…

If you're hiring a software engineer and that person programs in their spare time, it is a pretty clear indication that they not only want to be a software engineer but also enjoys programming. I used to ask this question, but now I've generalized it to asking if someone has any hobbies. I find passion in any area to a good indicator of the type of people I want to hire.

>I used to ask this question, but now I've generalized it to asking if someone has any hobbies.

I think this is far better than "pet projects". Some people would rather socialize, read literature, play music, play or watch sports, work on cars/home improvement, paint, travel, camp, write, get involved in politics, read the news, or any number of things! Rest and relaxation are particularly helpful to mental health. Even playing video games, watching movies (with a certain amount of moderation), or doing things that are more classically endorphin-releasing "fun" than programming contribute to a well-balanced individual.

I'd rather hire someone with a sense of balance in their life.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#53

Post by rickmb »

In my experience, candidates with major pet projects, especially ones that aren't related to their current job, fall into one or more of the following categories:

* They don't have life, and are usually not the most pleasant people to work with, let alone communicate with non-programmers.

* For some reason cannot find a job that involves the passion/knowledge/skill they put into their pet project. The job market for programmers being what it is, that's a major red flag.

* They have a passion for programming, but aren't good enough to hack it in a professional environment. Often not so much a skills but discipline or team player issue, but yes, you can have a passion for something you are not particularly good at! Millions of amateur-[enter activity here] do it every day!

Having or not having a pet project is an good angle for an interview, but not a meaningful qualification in itself.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#54

Post by noidi »

quinedstatement wrote: post #5

I consider myself very passionate about programming. I do a lot of research and learn about programming in my spare time, but have hardly any personal programming projects to show. After work, instead of grinding away coding like I do every day, I'm learning how to draw, and paint, and play music. Does this mean I'm not qualified for this .NET position?

> I do a lot of research and learn about programming in my spare time, but have hardly any personal programming projects to show.

I think this point is not stressed enough whenever this subject comes up. A person who spends all his free time reading CS research papers and experimenting with different solutions to problems he encounters in his field is not passionate by this standard if he doesn't have a pet _project_ to show at the interview.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#55

Post by pnathan »

mxavier wrote: post #21
wyclif wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe your employment contract states that anything you create is owned by your company so there is no code "outside of work." The question then becomes whether that is a contingency that has affected your passion or not.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting. Are there really contracts that say that any code you write, even if it is unrelated to your work and off-hours is the property of the company you work for? If so, that sounds like a horrible arrangement. That would be like a chef making a sandwich for himself at lunch and having to give it to the restaurant where he works instead.

HP used to have that clause in '06 or so. I read through their agreement around that time.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#56

Post by spacemanaki »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #10
wyclif wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe your employment contract states that anything you create is owned by your company so there is no code "outside of work." The question then becomes whether that is a contingency that has affected your passion or not.

As would be the case if you worked for some of the Bay Areas biggest names in tech.

I thought those contracts were not enforceable in CA? I'm most definitely not a lawyer tho, so I have little to back that up, but it's what I read in Joel Spolsky's answer here:

http://answers.onstartups.com/questions/19422/if-im-working-...

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#57

Post by ctdonath »

sunkencity wrote: post #30
hvs wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad that you associate "passion" with "hipster". I can't think of a more inaccurate characterization of a highly motivated developer. I also didn't get the impression that he was looking for a "hipster".

I am myself a passionate developer, that doesn't mean I have the time to make massive open-source projects just to get a better resume, because I'm neck deep in writing code for the company I have been running for the last 7 years. Not all people have the luxury to figure out something worthwhile do do and put on github. I hate hiring people and putting a price tag on them, it's a cruel world but not every job interv…

At risk of inspiring ire...

I'd have certain doubts of someone who does produce lots of open-source code, insofar as that could be construed as they don't think highly enough of their own code to sell it.

(As I write I'm waiting for GCC to rebuild due to the need to fix a bug therein. That such a bug exists at this late date in a product so widely used as a foundational tool does not inspire confidence in OSS. I find such flaws tend not to occur in "closed" software, where someone is paid to polish the corners that nobody wants to.)

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#58

Post by wuster »

georgemcbay wrote: post #43
0x12 wrote: post #24

If you have a life, I don't want you. If you have a family, I don't want you. If you have enough energy to do your work but not enough energy that after work you can work some more, I don't want you. What is it that makes employers so enamored of people with 'pet projects'? Are they easier to take advantage of? Do they work long hours without expecting compensation? Does not having dependents mean that it's easier to…

The worst side-effect of this is actually "If you were really passionate about your last job, I don't want you." I have old pet projects from times when my work at previous jobs was interesting but not all-consuming. The work I do for my current employer is so interesting and fun to me in so many ways that when I have spare coding time on non-work-hours, I'm still working on these work projects. My work projects are…

I agree here. Doing that extra pet project at work is a zero sum game vs. doing your own pet project. I find that it's easier to "find purpose" with a side project at work (whether it's an util, or just fixing a bug) because it directly addresses a pain point for you and the people you see every day.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#59

Post by loup-vaillant »

Again, we see here the tension between the needs of the employers and those of the applicants.

An applicant needs to be judged "fairly". More precisely, a false negative is unacceptable. This is especially critical when he's just above the "hiring bar".

An employer crumbles over CVs, and needs to judge fast. False positives are unacceptable. False negatives are no big deal. This is especially not critical when the applicant is just above the "hiring bar". There are others.

Hiring processes aren't designed to be fair to the applicants. They are designed to work for the employers. It's like a spam filter, except with tolerance reversed: no spam in, some ham out is cool. My gut tell me that it definitely sucks, but my brain fails to come up with a solution.

Re: If you don’t have pet projects, I don’t think I want you

#60

Post by flyosity »

rickmb wrote: post #53

In my experience, candidates with major pet projects, especially ones that aren't related to their current job, fall into one or more of the following categories: * They don't have life, and are usually not the most pleasant people to work with, let alone communicate with non-programmers. * For some reason cannot find a job that involves the passion/knowledge/skill they put into their pet project. The job market for…

Hmm, seems I don't fall into any of these categories.

I design and build web software during the day, then at night and on the weekends I work on my own iOS and Mac apps. I've been offered full-time iOS & Mac design/development jobs but I don't take them for a few reasons, most importantly that I really like my current "real" job and the hardcore web work keeps my skills sharp.

So I'm not the first category because I'm married and do have a life outside work, I'm not the second one because I can easily find a different full-time job but choose to stay in the position I have, and the third just isn't applicable.

I don't really have a position on the pet-projects-as-interview-question topic, but just thought I'd put in my two cents.

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