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Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

blog.edfloreshz.dev

321–330 of 408 posts

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I'm always skeptical when underlying language choice is featured prominently as a selling point for any new project. > It tells me, this is a technology-first, users-second enthusiast project. > And thus, I'll be surprised if it tackles the deepest issues users need solved. Some of the deepest issues that users need solved are ones that Rust was designed to solve at the language and compiler level. 1. System st…

Because this is written in Rust and given how hard it is to hire Rust engineers, this will be abandonware in no time. Remember vala anyone? Although I want this to succeed if it is infact more performant and smoother than GNOME.

Well, what about Vala? Obviously C, Python, and especially JavaScript are infinitely more popular programming languages. Yet the number of developers building GTK apps with any of them seems to be in the same ballpark.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really want System76 to succeed Succeed at what ? Re-implementing Gnome in Rust ?

I have seen this comment a few times but basically half the desktop environments for Linux are GTK. So, using GTK does not equal “re-implementing Gnome”. I use Cinnamon with Manjaro - it is not GNOME but it is GTK. Unity was the same. MATE is old GNOME but quite different from new GNOME — still GTK though. XFCE, LXDE, and pretty much every popular DE outside KDE and FVWM2 is based on GTK. Choosing Rust has nothing to…

cinnamon uses enough gnome libraries to count as using re implementing gnome

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#323
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does [a desktop environment] contain a window manager or is that fully separate? yes, it does. You can sometimes swap out the default WM for a DE, if you want > Is it the "explorer", shell, menu, dock, what not? yes > (But didn't that at least in part reside in a window manager)? not really. That's an implementation detail that just varies between different DEs and WMs more than across time. Most DEs don't use the…

As part of the WM, are a set of applications that are made to take full advantage of it? And the same set of applicatins are in general included in each one?

Not sure how to parse what you wrote here, but it's late and I've had a drink.

But it's the other way around— the WM is part of the desktop environment. For some desktop environments, you can choose to swap out the default WM of that DE for another. (That's what I meant to say before.)

Desktop environments have applications that are designed to be part of the DE. Typically some core applications, like the file manager, fall into this category. Linux desktop environments are ecosystems, and anyone can write an application that aims to fit into them and be a part of them in as first-class a way as possible. That means leveraging the desktop environment's libraries and adhering to its interface guidelines. Linux distros typically base themselves around such an ecosystem and choose most but not all of the applications in them based on their membership within that ecosystem, as well as their maturity and quality. Sometimes those ecosystems include competing apps in the same category, or apps which could be alternatives with partially overlapping use cases. Linux distros then make a choice.

There are sometimes issues between desktop environments, or inter-compatibility issues that require patching to make everything work. They tend to be very niche, and very universal (expecting all applications to use a common interface or behave the same way). The only desktop environment that reliably achieves comparable features without such an issue is that of macOS (and even then, only if you exclude apps that don't aim to feel ‘native’). The best example I can think of is the menu search functionality of the Unity desktop, which IIRC required custom patching of GTK libraries. That's the worst case: novel features rely on would-be standards that simply aren't in place across desktop environments or display servers or window managers or whatever.

In the best case, for example desktop shortcuts (XDG .desktop files), there are open standards that meet the needs of a wide range of desktop environments, and which all desktop environments and applications understand and meet.

In terms of basic integration though, of the kind you might see on Windows, where VLC looks more or less like Windows Explorer and Firefox looks more or less like Notepad, ‘integration’ is generally a matter of configuration that distros take care of themselves. Apps based on Qt libraries can be made to look right in ecosystems built on GTK and vice-versa. (Most apps can be made to look like GTK apps.)

If your point is to highlight the nuance and complexity of the situation: fine, I get it. What a ‘desktop environment’ is is nuanced and complex, and trying to nail down a philosophically satisfactory definition is technical and complicated.

If, on the other hand, you'd like to develop an intuition for what desktop environments are like:

1. Any given release of Windows has just one desktop environment. macOS has another.

2. Like most things humans have created, the details are tricky but the intuition is simple, and the best way to understand the thing is to play around with it in real life. Find a bookstore that carries Linux magazines, and buy one. (It may be imported and expensive.) It'll come with a DVD that lets you try several different desktop environments. Spend some time with a few, and you will very, very quickly get a clear sense of what a desktop environment is and why the concept is meaningful.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#324
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know that open source and Linux in general don't need/want another DE Unpopular opinion, but more DEs is fine and good, especially if they will have teams that are either (a) large or (b) well-funded. Plasma and GNOME are very good, and Unity was actually great to use in its heyday. Imo what we don't really need more of are the conservative, under-resourced 'classic look and feel' DEs like most of the minor playe…

Yeah a new DE would be welcome. I hope this will be less opinionated and barebones than gnome. That just needs too many add-ons to be useful. I use KDE now which does provide a lot of choice but I'd love something that has tiling built in. And yeah I know there's add-ons for KDE that do that :)

Any recommendations for good tiling managers for KDE?

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#325
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's like buying a Toyota, you know from the brand alone that you're getting a certain baseline level of reliability, maintainability, durability, and longevity. Rust is like the Toyota of programming languages - it can produce many different types of cars/programs, but they're all guaranteed to come with a baseline level of assurance, and to eliminate common classes of problems that degrade the end-user experience…

> It's possible to make buggy, slow, crappy software in any language. True. > Rust is no exception. Also true. > Nobody should derive any confidence from the language a product is written in. This, on the other hand, is a non-sequitur, or at least it's too strong, because Rust can do things that C can't do : safe deterministic memory management and safe concurrency without data races. These things are not just availa…

Non-sequitur definition: noun

a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement. "his weird mixed metaphors and non sequiturs"

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#326
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lots of Linux-based hardware that they design in-house. Are their Clevo-based laptops designed in-house? If they are, why are they designed with such abysmal speakers, mediocre webcam and no attempt to go past the full-HD screen resolution? Why not design something cool like Framework?

Nope, I don't consider those in-house. They are working on an in-house laptop, and if it ends up anything like their in-house desktops, it could be really nice.

Do you have a source for that?

This would really be a game changer. Unfortunately, you need a really great number of units, that building your own custom laptop hardware is feasible. I really which System76 success with that.

I always thought, if Dell were smart, they would do their own Linux-based brand, where they would reuse parts from mainline Dell. Kind of how they produce gaming laptops.

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer seems to be that the applications [1] are written in Rust using gtk-rs [2] (Rust-bindings for the GTK libs). [1]: https://github.com/orgs/pop-os/repositories?q=&type=source&l... [2]: https://gtk-rs.org/

So basically it’s not Rust.

How pure does your program have to be to be rust for you? How few libraries in C or C++ must it call? The developers are writing all their code in rust, so it is in rust…

Re: Exploring System76's New Rust Based Desktop Environment

#330
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Raspberry Pi seems to be doing just fine with them, whereas the FOOS competition is where exactly?

Allwinner, Rockchip and Mediatek seem do be doing just fine without all the blobs.

So where are their Raspberry Pi like boards being adopted like crazy by the Maker community?
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