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Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

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Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#61

Post by BoorishBears »

bko wrote: post #57
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #27

> " Is there any scenario in which this makes sense for me to mention something to my manager or should I just keep my mouth shut? " The only thing you should bring up to your manager is if the person is not meeting their commitments in a way that impacts you meeting your own commitments; you do want the responsibility for that to land where it should. Even then, do it in a non-accusatory way. Beyond that, it's just…

> Beyond that, it's just plain none of your business What if someone was embezzling money from the firm? Where do you draw the line? > You also don't know what, if anything, the manager is doing to address the problem nor are you entitled to. If you want to be in the business of dealing with that kind of issue, become a manager yourself. Most managers would expect junior team members to speak out. If it's being addre…

> Where do you draw the line?

Embezzling money.

And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate".

You can effortlessly do the same for someone slacking, as the comment you replied to did.

> Most managers would expect junior team members to speak out. If it's being addressed, the manager will likely tell you that he or she is aware and its being addressed.

Most managers would expect you to share in terms of how it affects you, not some vague air of "they don't do anything":

So not: "I feel like they always have excuses for doing nothing"

Instead: "I needed X, Y and Z on separate instances from this coworker and was unable to get that"

(Or specific to excuses: "I expected X, didn't get X and they gave excuse Y")

It a good practice to do that anyways since it protects you from potential alienation and/or embarrassment if it turns out your idea of "them doing nothing" is dead wrong.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#62

Post by edmundsauto »

ncmncm wrote: post #48
edmundsauto wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, let’s acknowledge that “odds approaching 0” is your opinion. I happen to have a different one. Second, for some people, fairness is important. If OP is one of those people, they may prefer knowing if their employer shares those values. If they don’t, then OP may want to know with certainty so they can work elsewhere.

The "which is more likely" principle applies: is it more likely you will get a raise, or that the manager gets it? You were being a busybody, but the manager was doing their assigned work.

There are also many other possible outcomes.

Even if it's less likely that the manager would side with OP, it doesn't mean "approaches 0", as you stated previously.

Additionally, even if the manager doesn't address it, it could end up being a positive. Instead of "which is more likely", what really matters is the value of the outcome. I'm the kind of person that I would rather know whether my manager cares at all, so even the worst case outcome (getting fired) would be beneficial because I don't want to work with a group of people who can't rely on each other.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#63

Post by hermannj314 »

I am not sure I agree with all the other posters saying it isn't your business and say nothing. Most of the posters here are actively working to automate millions of people out of work and disrupt industries to non-existence. Disrupt your office and automate your coworker to the unemployment line.

In your story there is a potential for you to make more money. In that sense: it is your business to do something.

Meddle away, play politics and try to come out ahead. In one scenario, nothing changes. In another, you might even be able to take this other person's job, grab a promotion. Play it another way maybe you work a lot less and get more money. There are a lot of angles where you come out ahead.

If your conscience bothers you, think about it this way. When you apply for a job and get hired, you took that job away the next best option. The fact that this coworker of yours has the job doesn't change the calculus, you have as much right to their job and pay as they do. So take it from them by outcompeting them. We live in a capitalist society. The fact that this person has a job is no safety net. Go take it from them.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#64

Post by gigel82 »

Just to look at a slightly different perspective, is it possible you're just not aware of the work they're doing? (especially since you mentioned they're a higher level)

Perhaps there's a breakdown in communication, I've been on both ends of that myself. They could be helping a different team / org, prototyping, or working on a large refactor.

Yes, a full year is a lot for that, but not outside the realm of possibility (I have 'went dark' for months at a time refactoring some legacy black-box before, or doing out-there prototyping for a layer that may not account to anything in production).

That said, my productivity has gone to 25% - 50% since the pandemic started (home with the kids is not the best environment for deep thinking), so this could very well be about me :)

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#65

Post by deanmoriarty »

ratg13 wrote: post #55
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #27

> " Is there any scenario in which this makes sense for me to mention something to my manager or should I just keep my mouth shut? " The only thing you should bring up to your manager is if the person is not meeting their commitments in a way that impacts you meeting your own commitments; you do want the responsibility for that to land where it should. Even then, do it in a non-accusatory way. Beyond that, it's just…

There is a saying that goes, "the fastest way to demotivate a good employee is to allow them to watch you tolerate a bad one" Not all managers are aware of this. Everything you say is true, however, I have also witnessed first hand this sort of thing drain a company of talent. It's only after everyone else leaves and maybe you leave yourself where you start to question whether watching the whole company lose it's tal…

I wish I could upvote you 100. This is exactly the kind of thing I witnessed in real life. It was absolutely sad.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#66

Post by deanmoriarty »

throwaway943c45 wrote: post #47

> either in some excuse or obfuscation. I had a coworker like this. Not only would he not get anything done but at standup he would say clear BS to our manager who seemed to not understand it was BS. The BS was the thing that really got under my skin. Because his BS seemed to pass the test with the manager but was such elementary BS to the other engineers. Finally one day I flipped out and called him out directly and…

Why did you lose your job? Was it because of the way you confronted the coworker?

I can’t help but feeling so much empathy for you, if I had a company I would love those kind of things to bubble up my way from other employees. These (coworkers not pulling their weight and management being oblivious to it) are the kind of things smart people quit for.

Everybody should be looking out for the health of the organization, the culture should belong to everybody. Most comments here are simply “mind your business”. So sad.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#67

Post by bko »

BoorishBears wrote: post #61
bko wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Beyond that, it's just plain none of your business What if someone was embezzling money from the firm? Where do you draw the line? > You also don't know what, if anything, the manager is doing to address the problem nor are you entitled to. If you want to be in the business of dealing with that kind of issue, become a manager yourself. Most managers would expect junior team members to speak out. If it's being addre…

> Where do you draw the line? Embezzling money. And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate". You can effortlessly do the same for someone slacking, as the comment you replied to did. > Most managers would expect junior team membe…

> And no, this is not an opening for some roundabout logic implying slacking off is the same as embezzling wages... you can't come up for a non-harmful explanation for embezzling money: the word literally means "steal or misappropriate".

If I pay someone $100 to come clean my house and they take my money and don't clean my house, its no different than if they came into my house and stole $100. It's legally different, but there's harm being done and I consider it theft. It's not complicated.

In regards to slacking, there's no expectation that someone is working 100% of the time and no reasonable person would expect that someone is working 100% of the time. But a reasonable person would expect that they work some of the time, perhaps a reasonable amount based on the work of their peers.

> Most managers would expect you to share in terms of how it affects you, not some vague air of "they don't do anything":

I've been a manager and worked with lots of managers. I strongly disagree and this is not what I've seen. They want to have more information about efficiency and happiness on the team that they're managing. And they certainly want to know if someone is not working... at all... for over a year...

You can tell them and if they say "don't care", so be it. But a reasonable manager would want to know. I don't know if you've ever been in a managerial role, but I suggest you have a talk with superiors about this hypothetical and get their opinion on it.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#69

Post by Der_Einzige »

tubby12345 wrote: post #46
ncmncm wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joke's on you. This is the top-rated response.

Quoted post unavailable.

You did, and you are based for writing this comment. As usual, HN has pretty bad taste with downvotes. One day I am going to write a script to allow a user to automatically upvote all downvoted posts for this reason.

Re: Ask HN: My coworker doesn't work. Does it make sense for me to say anything?

#70

Post by tinyhouse »

ratg13 wrote: post #55
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #27

> " Is there any scenario in which this makes sense for me to mention something to my manager or should I just keep my mouth shut? " The only thing you should bring up to your manager is if the person is not meeting their commitments in a way that impacts you meeting your own commitments; you do want the responsibility for that to land where it should. Even then, do it in a non-accusatory way. Beyond that, it's just…

There is a saying that goes, "the fastest way to demotivate a good employee is to allow them to watch you tolerate a bad one" Not all managers are aware of this. Everything you say is true, however, I have also witnessed first hand this sort of thing drain a company of talent. It's only after everyone else leaves and maybe you leave yourself where you start to question whether watching the whole company lose it's tal…

There is a difference between a bad employee who is harmful to the team and one who is not doing anything and is harmless, albeit not adding any value. Good managers get rid of bad employees and try to work out with potentially good employees that happen to have a rough time. Sometimes it doesn't work out and you need to part ways, but sometimes it does. I've seen it more than once a great employee having depression and really struggling. That's when they need the support of their manager the most.
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