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Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

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Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US has 2x more troops forward deployed in East Europe for Russian contingency and decades worth of equipment stocked piled as result of cold war. There's also all of NATO. Versus TW where PRC concentration of forces overwhelm US air/naval assets and reinforcement is far away in time and logistics and there's no US allies in region willing to credibly contribute to TW defense. The entire current TW defense strategy is…

2x what? The total US deployments in Europe are https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/10/infographic-us-mili... As for Taiwan, barring immediate Taiwanese surrender China will have to suppress Taiwanese naval and air defenses and then put substantial boots on the ground. The Chinese airborne is not large enough to do the latter on its own, that means amphibious assaults and contested landings. Though they would ultim…

>2x what?

Sorry hastily constructed reply. Typo for 1/2x and instead of "in" East Europe I meant "for" East Europe. Was trying to convey is Russia has built superior posture relative to NATO considering US and EU (lack) of commitment.

>The Chinese airborne is not large enough to do the latter on its own, that means amphibious assaults and contested landings

PLA war planners have assumed to be able to secure air supremacy and (relatively) uncontested landing within few days with current force balance. Air supremacy + PLA airborne + helicopter transports is assumed to be sufficient to establish mass uncontested landing using civilian transport ships built to military standards. Many US war games seems comport, but even excluding wargames = worst case scenario for show argument, most new western think tank reports have similar conclusions, hence hard press for TW to adopt asymmetric doctrine = currently TW can't buy enough time.

Hard to say what actual US involvement will be, but IMO nothing substantial out of Japan (or within 1st island chain), and it takes time for other forces to break into SCS in detail considering SCS bases there to hinder.

> making more enemies in the world while losing former would-be friends,

I would say PRC has mostly successfully dismantled US political containment plans. Wolf warrior scared ASEAN, SK, perhaps JP into neutrality outside of military theater. AU too far to be relevant except for blockade. AUKUS is basically the weakest minilateral arrangement for PRC containment versus what think tanks thought possible. EU isn't commitmented to pick sides in TW contingency. They're not even pressing further sanctions after PRC counter sanctioned EU sanctions. PRC isn't making friends, but it's eliminating committed enemies. Which is more important for PRC goals. PRC has secured more impunity to pursue security goals than USSR at height of power. Of course USN remains the massive challenge.

> is in severe demographic decline, much like Russia.

Demographic decline works in PRC favor for security considerations. Less people = less resource = more security = more flexibility to actually pursue security objectives. And even with depressed >10M birth rate, Navy/Air war simply don't require much personnel, there's no shortage of bodies. Also consider PRC is currently only spending 2% on military, 6% is not uncustomary in times of extreme security competition. Even a demographically declining PRC can allocate resources to support military multiple times current size.

> Realistically there's no good option for China to take Taiwan, but the CCP can't admit that.

Military options for taking TW is largely forgone in PLA literature from last few years. The challenge is still aftermath with US, which CCP readily admits capability gap is large. But if/when PRC accumulates sufficient capabilities to deter US or establish PRC regional hegemony, taking TW is an afterthought. Last year was first time analysis from both US and PRC side is trending towards conclusion force balance will only favor PRC with time, unless tech develops can manifestly shift balance. Realistically no amount of US + co spending and acquisitions is going to match PRC concentrating force in one region. IMO, TW is a sideshow, setting for actual Sino-US security competition. PRC has options for taking TW at anytime, some for deterring US, and very little for defeating US.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#182
post #10

The bigger question is "why now". Ukraine is not joining NATO or the EU any time soon. Russia has de facto annexed Crimea and its ongoing support for separatists in Donbas keeps the region unstable to its advantage. I suspect two reasons: Putin's flagging domestic support and Russia's (and to be honest, the world's) perception that America is currently so divided and weak it will be unable to offer much resistance th…

Maybe Putin wants that "We are sending the immigrants card" by having a big border with EU; one way (ukraine as russia) or another (ukraine as a swiftly welcomed eu member)

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine's defense is about helping people who are being actively invaded by bigger foreign powers. Of course it doesn't directly benefit you. By your logic, donating to charity "does approximately jack shit to benefit a person like me." Also the US has done literally nothing to "provocate" anything. Euromaidan happened in 2014, Crimea was annexed, and Donbass separatists supported by Russia. Status quo is changing in…

See, I think this is just wrong. I think that we specifically shouldn't be getting involved in costly international conflicts to "help people". I think charity is pretty different, as there isn't a risk of a huge pushback when donating to charity. Whereas getting involved with this Ukraine situation could potentially result in a war. I don't think the US should be willing to go to war over this country that has histo…

This is the same isolationist indifference by the US and Chamberlain's UK precipitating WW2. No is better off when the world gives free rein for authoritarians to exploit other peoples. The US and NATO isn't going to war over Ukraine. They will slap Russia with harsher sanctions (still won't cut off gas though!), cut them from SWIFT financial transactions, at which point Russian banks will switch to Russian SPFS which China and Europe, reluctantly, will implement to keep gas flowing. Only thing that changed is the Ukrainian people keep becoming worse off.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#184
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then if either side attacks the other, all the other members are obligated to defend against the aggressor. The reason Ukraine hasn't been allowed to join NATO already is because the rest of the alliance isn't willing to make that promise (that they'll go to war with Russia to protect Ukraine).

Russia's recent demonstrations, like Admiral Kuznetsov's problems, leaving Armenia faced with Turkey and Azerbaijan, weak drone program shows that in reality Russian military isn't that strong against serious opponent. Even more importantly, a serious military operations will undermine the power within the country. It's doubtful Russia would go to fight Ukraine even now (it would be rather disastrous), but even more…

A situation that could be considered disastrous, i.e. poverty that would result from the western sanctions/isolation, the strife against the occupied Ukrainian nationalists, against internal dissent/opposition is beneficial to the silovik class -- more people to crush/imprison/destroy, more space to advance their careers, more power to wield, and it's them who Putin relies on to keep himself in power, not the populace at large. (The effectiveness of such approach has been demonstrated by the Lukashenko regime) For Putin it's also much easier to keep his power till his death in a locked down curfewed country, with all the possible freedoms taken away due to the great war with the eternal enemy that's going on. Think of North Korea. So I would say it's much more probable than 'doubtful' considering that the key players are likely going to gain, if their plans go smoothly that is.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because then nothing protects members from Russia. If two NATO members go to war, there is no clear side to take. Also, Russia does not want to join. They want the USSR back

>They want the USSR back No, they don't, and I don't understand why people (Americans in particular?) seem to think this. Is it just nostalgia for the first Cold War?

Putin wants to recreate influence in ex USSR. He stated that in 2002. He tried with soft power, but failed, hence 2008 Georgia 2014 military action in Ukraine.

In his recent easy he claimed Ukrainians and Russians are the same nation

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why any state tries to present its history in a positive light is a different question. Good things are exaggerated, bad things are smoothed over. The states doing the opposite just doesn't live long. Being positive about USSR and Russian empire and pushing the idea of restoring it are pretty different things. There are no ideas such as rebuilding USSR (or Russian empire) pushed by local media. > even posi…

>Good things are exaggerated, bad things are smoothed over. They present bad things(imperialism) as good things. Today. >What is wrong with empires by then? It's like asking what's wrong with slavery or serfdom in the 19th century. >Are we supposed to condemn that? Maybe not present it at prime time on TV, in a way that tells the audience that Russian/Soviet imperialism was a great thing, was sorely needed, and today…

> Maybe not present it at prime time on TV, in a way that tells the audience that Russian/Soviet imperialism was a great thing, was sorely needed, and today's actions are a continuation of these great deeds, right before the "news" segment with its usual "these westerners are out to get our poor "Russki Mir"?

Could you share an example of "today's actions are a continuation of these great deeds"? I do see USSR and even empire times nostalgy, but it is just a nostalgy, nothing else.

> They present bad things(imperialism) as good things. Today.

I don't see that happening. Since you state that this is a part of the state propaganda these ideas must be pretty widespread, but I cannot confirm that.

> It's like asking what's wrong with slavery or serfdom in the 19th century.

AFAIK in 19th century British empire dominated the world. So what? I don't quite get your idea of labeling 19th century imperialism bad. They could do better? Probably. It is meaninless to discuss this from a 21th century man's perspective.

> in a way that tells the audience that Russian/Soviet imperialism was a great thing

I would disagree. Soviet "imperialism" was always backwards, everybody was tooking advantage of it, except russians themselves.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I think this is just wrong. I think that we specifically shouldn't be getting involved in costly international conflicts to "help people". I think charity is pretty different, as there isn't a risk of a huge pushback when donating to charity. Whereas getting involved with this Ukraine situation could potentially result in a war. I don't think the US should be willing to go to war over this country that has histo…

This is the same isolationist indifference by the US and Chamberlain's UK precipitating WW2. No is better off when the world gives free rein for authoritarians to exploit other peoples. The US and NATO isn't going to war over Ukraine. They will slap Russia with harsher sanctions (still won't cut off gas though!), cut them from SWIFT financial transactions, at which point Russian banks will switch to Russian SPFS whic…

OK, that's fair. I am actually curious though about your take on the sanctions. Do you have any resources to recommend for reading up on this SWIFT system and the SPFS alternative? And does this imply that Europe and China will side with Russia against the US?

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin doesn't want to lose power. All these propaganda, military moves are to give poor people something to take their eyes and minds off the reality - him robbing the country for 30 years. If you have absolute power for long time you know what happens.

>Putin doesn't want to lose power. All these propaganda, military moves are to give poor people something to take their eyes and minds off the reality - him robbing the country for 30 years. If you have absolute power for long time you know what happens. I dont see this as the answer. If it's really power, march to Kyiv and take it all. They could do it. Crimea is more or less the only annexation because that's all t…

I mean his only goal is to stay in power. If you "match to Kyiv" - you are guaranteed casualties and it's not going to help him with his ratings - now you have poor people with dead relatives. Russian army/people can fight well - but so can Ukrainians and Chechens - but there is zero motivation for the ordinary Russians to fight at the moment. He will always send private military groups but there is only that much you can do. There is no ideology to fight for, no grand ideas, no grand leader - a bunch of crooks living in palaces with their offspring living in London/Paris/Florida mansions.

Syria was easy - fighting against people with no modern weapons. But when Turkey shot down Russian jet - what was the reaction? It was a joke. How about helping Armenia recently with all "Collective Security Treaty" agreements? Nothing, again!

So Russia backs down against Turkey's aggression on a fair "casus belli" but is going against NATO on Ukraine? Please.

A strong leader has a strong country behind him - Putin's Russia is not, it is mostly frustrated population with weak economy and not much hope for the bright future. And whatever Putin is doing is not good for Russia, not improving its economy and not improving lives of ordinary people but doing exactly the opposite.

Putin is all about propaganda, illusions, dreams and nightmares - he knows propaganda works and he pumps billions into it. The reality will hit hard if he believes (or will believe) in his own picture of the world.

Putin, Lukashenko, Nazarbaev - their only agenda is to stay in power. There is no crime they will not do for this. If it means gas chambers - we are going to get gas chambers. Unfortunately this is the new reality of this era. But the good news is - they are old and don't understand or appeal to the younger generations. There is still a chance.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine's defense is about helping people who are being actively invaded by bigger foreign powers. Of course it doesn't directly benefit you. By your logic, donating to charity "does approximately jack shit to benefit a person like me." Also the US has done literally nothing to "provocate" anything. Euromaidan happened in 2014, Crimea was annexed, and Donbass separatists supported by Russia. Status quo is changing in…

See, I think this is just wrong. I think that we specifically shouldn't be getting involved in costly international conflicts to "help people". I think charity is pretty different, as there isn't a risk of a huge pushback when donating to charity. Whereas getting involved with this Ukraine situation could potentially result in a war. I don't think the US should be willing to go to war over this country that has histo…

It depends on how you look at it - what if Russia is historically part of Ukraine? Once Kiev was the capital of Russia )))

Can UK attack USA because once USA was owned by England? How about Russia claiming part of California or Alaska? Same for France and Louisiana?

Geopolitically it is very significant, it threatens Europe and as with another example from the last century, if you don't stop the evil early - you will pay with millions of lives later.

Re: Russia says Ukraine talks hit 'dead end', Poland warns of risk of war

#190
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They want the USSR back No, they don't, and I don't understand why people (Americans in particular?) seem to think this. Is it just nostalgia for the first Cold War?

Yes, there is clear and really big difference between autocratic ideas and the wishes of the population. Unfortunately Russians are weak to keep autocracy off their backs, so they have to suffer from it.

>Russians are weak to keep autocracy off their backs

And that weakness comes from the complete lack of the political culture needed for a functional democracy. The elite of the Russian empire that had a prototypical form of that culture had been eradicated by the communists, and about 10 years of relative lack of authoritarianism in the 90s and early 2000s wasn't nearly enough to form even a semblance of such culture. An ordinary Russian doesn't know what separation of powers is for, how freedom of speech/expression protects their interests, that it's their taxes that Putin spends, not government's money, the norms of civil debate, the individualist thinking etc etc.

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