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Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

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Re: Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

#71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really dishonest form of argument and I don't think you actually read my post for context. There's a very large difference between the relatively small gaps in genomes between related virus species and the grand canyon sized gap between COVID and it's nearest neighbor. The difference between omicron and delta is very small, delta and alpha also very small. These would be "expected" differences much like inf…

> Logic would dictate you'd want to give up all the evidence of bad bat soup as fast as possible. No logical narrative for PRC is this: Covid19 never originated in PRC in the first place - Wuhan was merely the first identified cluster, being a large transit hub in the world's most populous country that just happens to have some labs which contributed to PRC's flu monitoring system picking up the novel disease in the…

>PRC already entertained WHO investigation. That's enough.

Entertained? Hardly. But if there is one thing China does well it's manipulating others to partake in or at least not dispute their highly effective propaganda machine.

The WHO is at the mercy of the PRC for access, and PRC knows that and has exploited it to their advantage from the very beginning, from changing long held naming conventions, to delaying access, to altering messaging so it falls in line with PRC's narrative.

>Now go validate PRC conspiracy theory that it was a leak from Fort Detrick, which is just as valid, knowing full well there's about zero chance US would open Fort Detrick to international scrutiny.

How is it just a valid? The virus was discovered in Wuhan, not near Fort Detrick.

China denied the outbreak was occurring and suppressed info on it for weeks and months, but now we're supposed to recognize their superb ability in identifying novel viruses? What good is early detection if it's a secret and only benefits locals? Why would they do that and keep international flights open if they suspected foreign origin and weren't taking actions consistent with containing an outbreak at its source?

That's either incompetence or suppression/censorship or both, but it in no way evidence of ability to identify early or respond quickly and effectively.

Re: Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://nerdhaspower.weebly.com/ratg13-is-fake.html

It's not even the most similar virus to sars-cov-2. Even if it's fake it doesn't matter and there's no evidence that it is.

I didn't realize that COVID-19 has a virus more similar to it than ratg13. When did this change?

> Even if it's fake it doesn't matter and there's no evidence that it is.

That's disingenuous. There's evidence, but you're just ignoring it.

It does matter because it means that COVID-19 is likely created in a lab.

Re: Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

#73
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Logic would dictate you'd want to give up all the evidence of bad bat soup as fast as possible. No logical narrative for PRC is this: Covid19 never originated in PRC in the first place - Wuhan was merely the first identified cluster, being a large transit hub in the world's most populous country that just happens to have some labs which contributed to PRC's flu monitoring system picking up the novel disease in the…

>PRC already entertained WHO investigation. That's enough. Entertained? Hardly. But if there is one thing China does well it's manipulating others to partake in or at least not dispute their highly effective propaganda machine. The WHO is at the mercy of the PRC for access, and PRC knows that and has exploited it to their advantage from the very beginning, from changing long held naming conventions, to delaying acces…

Hardly is more than enough courtesy considering US officials was pushing lab leak. WHO is also at the mercy of US funding and pressure that entails. Including entertaining US initiated lab leak propaganda which is more effective and well funded than what PRC is capable of. And of course PRC gets to dictate access and terms, it has sovereignty.

>How is it just a valid? The virus was discovered in Wuhan, not near Fort Detrick.

The virus was _identified_ in Wuhan, does not mean originate there. PRC lab leak conspiracy is Fort Detrick leak + Wuhan military game spread. Again, it's PRC conspiracy but holds equivalent validity in terms of discourse power if CCP wants to exploit to it counter pressure WHO to access Detrick for investigation.

>China denied the outbreak

No PRC notified WHO of novel corona virus a few weeks after first cluster was discovered. It was praised as extremely expedient at the time.

> keep international flights open

Because it's expatriation flights. PRC is not going to lock foreign nationals in China, countries have right to recall their citizens. And inbound flights had actual competent quarantine setup, ergo PRC could maintain covid0 whereas most places that did security theatre temperature checks could not.

> That's either incompetence or suppression/censorship or both, but it in no way evidence of ability to identify early or respond quickly and effectively.

Identifying within weeks and responding with some incompetence/censorship/corruption is still overwhelmingly better than what most developed countries did with multi months heads up after Hubei lockdown. Despite how they topped the pandemic response index. Incompetence is relative and the fact is, places with high interconnectivity with PRC like Korea, Japan, TW, Singapore, Australia etc all managed to suppress covid pre omicron based on info provided by PRC and competent epidemiological interventions. And their import case statistics show PRC never exported that much covid cases post Hubei lockdown. It was completely manageable, whereas most of their import cases came from EU/NA.

Point is, lab leak could very well be true, but there's plenty of datapoints for history to be rewritten in PRC favor once/if geopolitics cool down, ergo it's in PRC interests to wait. At then end of the day, covid origin is going to be determined more by propaganda, less science.

Re: Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

#74
post #7

Check out “Viral” by Chan and Ridley - I highly recommend this book. Edit: Yes, the initial pandemic virus most likely leaked from WIV lab in Wuhan. Whether it was engineered and whether it was intentional are different questions.

Now this is much more likely than it supposed to have been a bio weapon.

I don't know whether it was a bioweapon. But consider that if the goal of a bioweapon is to disrupt your adversaries as much as possible, which is more effective: 1. having it kill almost everyone (including your own people) and then disappear, or 2. having it kill some people, cause fear and panic, and disrupt economies and societies for years on end? If it is a bioweapon, it's been an extremely effective one.

Re: Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

#75
post #44

Why wouldn't it be? We have all the technology. Why make a dirty bomb, when you can make something invisible and release it at a busy airport, and it gets everywhere in a month and only affects the unvaccinated. It could be very profitable. Why politicians rush to convince us that this is not lab-made?! If not the original SARS-CoV-2, then Omicron for sure was lab-made.

Are you a creationist? Serious question.

I am a practicing Orthodox Christian, so, yeah, I do buy the Simulation hypothesis very seriously.

Re: Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

#76
post #36
post #29

This is a very polarizing topic. I'd love to know enough about this field to understand what is going on. I just hope that if this is man made we have learned something to prevent this happening again. How hard would it be for someone to do this on purpose?

i think the biggest learning from covid is that we cant prevent something like this from happening again. not without stopping travel at least

The most important lesson is that we need to re-enact the moratorium on gain of function research that the Trump administration lifted.

Re: Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

#77
post #6

From the Nature medicine paper: > Editors’ note, [30] March 2020: We are aware that this article is being used as the basis for unverified theories that the novel coronavirus causing COVID-19 was engineered. There is no evidence that this is true; scientists believe that an animal is the most likely source of the coronavirus. And from "The Scientist": > Update (March 11, 2020): On social media and news outlets, a the…

In other news:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29927990

Top scientists believed COVID leaked from Wuhan lab but feared going public: Emails

Re: Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

#78
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a creationist? Serious question.

I am a practicing Orthodox Christian, so, yeah, I do buy the Simulation hypothesis very seriously.

Then your assumption that Omicron just had to be made in a lab makes sense, considering you don't believe in evolution in the first place.

Re: Lab-Made Coronavirus Triggers Debate (2015)

#79
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a practicing Orthodox Christian, so, yeah, I do buy the Simulation hypothesis very seriously.

Then your assumption that Omicron just had to be made in a lab makes sense, considering you don't believe in evolution in the first place.

There's no conflict between evolution and Orthodoxy. I have medical researchers, physicists, psychologists, and other prominent scientist attending our church. Our planets was seeded with life and then God help a little bit so that it's not populated only by beasts.
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