I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now • Hacker News Board

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#731

Post by Buttons840 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:52 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #685

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

> These things might be reasonable in a startup with a dozen people, but we have over a hundred thousand. My opinion is that once an organization is a certain size, everything really needs to be written down and easily accessible. I shouldn't have to regularly ask people how to do basic things, it should be on a wiki. If it's complicated, it should be in a training video, or a user manual. Here's the root cause of yo…

> Individuals and interactions over processes and tools

The points should be phrased "Processes and tools after individuals and interactions", meaning we want both, but one side first. In this case, it better implies we want processes and tools that work well for the individuals and their interactions.

Same for the other points of the manifesto.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#732

Post by stonemetal12 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #685

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

> These things might be reasonable in a startup with a dozen people, but we have over a hundred thousand. My opinion is that once an organization is a certain size, everything really needs to be written down and easily accessible. I shouldn't have to regularly ask people how to do basic things, it should be on a wiki. If it's complicated, it should be in a training video, or a user manual. Here's the root cause of yo…

Maybe I have been lucky to never have experience a process heavy work place, but those two parts of the manifesto never made much sense to me.

Going Agile basically meant a return to caveman times. The only way to know anything about the code base is for the tribe's Elders to sit around the fire and tell stories.

Code doing weird thing X? Is it a bug? Is it intended? No way to tell unless I interview everyone who has ever touched the code base, and they happen to remember why they did that.

I get that the manifesto says favor "this" over "that" but don't discard "that", but everywhere I have ever seen it implemented they discarded "that".

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#733

Post by P_I_Staker » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

tayo42 wrote: post #189

hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

Agree with this idea. Every job promises that it will be the best. But after a few new job experiences, i know how bad it can get. Yeah i could get another 20-50k but the chance its going to be a nightmare again isn't worth the risk I think. Some managers, idk what they're thinking.

Yup this just happened to me for a measly $9k that I could have made working paid overtime in my last gig. It was my time to leave and the right call for other reasons, but I would not have picked this again if things were going well.

Now I’m in a very adversarial relationship with my manager who seems to think $100k is insane compensation, he’s owed the world, and my senior status means I should just know internal processes and make me immune to debugging headaches.

In the past when people struggled with tooling/debugging that was just the way the cookie crumbled. There was sympathy and understanding. Now I work with a jackass that just assumes someone is screwing up, and lashes out at people when things aren’t going well.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#734

Post by shagie » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

Buttons840 wrote: post #731

tablespoon wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These things might be reasonable in a startup with a dozen people, but we have over a hundred thousand. My opinion is that once an organization is a certain size, everything really needs to be written down and easily accessible. I shouldn't have to regularly ask people how to do basic things, it should be on a wiki. If it's complicated, it should be in a training video, or a user manual. Here's the root cause of yo…

> Individuals and interactions over processes and tools The points should be phrased "Processes and tools after individuals and interactions", meaning we want both, but one side first. In this case, it better implies we want processes and tools that work well for the individuals and their interactions. Same for the other points of the manifesto.

The truth tends to be closer to https://www.halfarsedagilemanifesto.org

  Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
  and we have mandatory processes and tools to control how those
  individuals (we prefer the term ‘resources’) interact

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#735

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #508

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>30 paid holidays I'm always angered by these over-generalizations for the whole of Europe. Europe is not a single country with identical laws and working conditions but they differ wildly by borders. The minimum amount of vacation days by EU law is 20 per year for every full-time worker in the EU but workers can get more based on union negotiations of each individual country or individual company perks that wish to…

Sure it was a stereotype, still there is contract negotiation, there is the law for all cases and what one can manage to put into their contract. Also get knowledgeable about work law and have a legal insurance. Even downgrading my example to how things go back home in Portugal versus DACH where I have been for the last 20 years, I would pick our conditions over FAANG salary without the social part.

>Sure it was a stereotype

Claiming everyone in Europe gets 30 vacation days when that's obviously false is not a stereotype, but a gross over exaggeration. Just because you get that perk doesn't magically make it true for the whole EU.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#736

Post by Infinitesimus » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #441

shawabawa3 wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The non-faang but with faang pegged compensation company I work for does yearly grants My L5 comp is ~$150k base and $140k equity per year (I'm based in UK, would be higher if I was in the US)

I guess this is just lower base than I'm expecting I work at a company in a similar situation (we get a lot of Xooglers and pay accordingly) and my L6 base is 250k and I have 150k worth of RSUs vesting per year for the next 3 years. I do negotiate base aggressively vs equity so that might be skewing my view of things

L6 (~ Staff eng) new hire offers at rich big co usually are af 250 base and 250-300k/yr in stock. See levels.fyi for some recent ones.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#737

Post by Buttons840 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:58 PM UTC

elihu wrote: post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

How many of us agree but haven't yet read our companies Confluence pages?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#738

Post by ahi » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

I have kids, well 1 kid, and it still applies if not more so. Is making a bit more worth the stress of changing all of my childcare arrangements? My current job I can clearly state that I have school pickup/dropoff at this time so no meetings. A prospective employer could promise the same flexibility and after the initial 6 month grind I would be comfortable demanding it, but starting a employer/employee relationship that way is much easier said than done.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#739

Post by Qub3d » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:00 PM UTC

> If you’re a strictly B2B company, you work when businesses work. That means “9-5” schedules, most major holidays observed, and almost no weekend pager duty. Mention this to your prospects. A sane workplace with defined starts and ends to the workday is very attractive to a certain kind of engineer - the kind that likes to be home for dinner, and read their children bedtime stories, for example.

I am the "kind of engineer" that stereotypically should be throwing themselves into the cogs -- mid twenties, bachelor, etc.

I have the fortune of working for a B2B shop that is exactly like this, and sure -- I might not have quite as much experience now as a guy that has spent the last 18 months doing 60-80 hour weeks. On the other hand, I have been able to focus on my writing and speaking, build some cool projects and work on an open-source team, not to mention really improve my physical health.

Living to work is not worth it to me, and I am very hesitant to look at low-to-mid-level positions in FAAMG or startups as a result.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#740

Post by decafninja » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 3:01 PM UTC

ridethebike wrote: post #636

mcv wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technical people are responsible for building and maintaining all the systems that handle the stuff that the business want done. And I also told business people what they should be doing. Seeing banks as a non-tech industry is a mistake in my opinion, and many banks do seem to agree that they should be a tech company. Many are active in tech communities, organise tech related events, and really seem to care about tec…

Worked in several banks. "We are not bank, we are tech company with bank department" - was mentioned occasionally in each of them. What was also common - red tape, outdated software (tools, libraries, frameworks), restricted access to workstation, processes focused around pushing approvals around (instead of automation). That's why my response to "we are not a bank" sentiment above is "it's a bank, alright".

Saying that they are a tech company is popular amongst the big banks these days. Technically that's true - they (and most businesses these days) are driven by tech and would fall apart without it. But tech is most definitely a cost center entity at such firms and tech employees likewise treated as second class citizen. As my old engineering manager at a bank told us - "if a trader tells you to jump and dance like a monkey, you jump and dance like a monkey".

I've heard Goldman Sachs has attempted to make some strides in running their Marcus product more like a Silicon Valley tech company (within reason). But I've also heard that ultimately that it too fell prey to the burden of the old conservative bank culture. A friend who worked there until recently told me not to fall for the glitzy marketing, and that it was just all more of the same. Would be interested what someone who is actually working there now has to say, esp. someone that has worked in both SV tech companies and Goldman to compare.