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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

cushychicken.github.io

621–630 of 927 posts

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah same in the UK. 25 days is the norm. 28 days is good. 30 days is very rare. Also nobody gets paid overtime, the company's pension contribution is 5% of your salary. Yes benefits are better in Europe, but not so much that you're better off earning $100k here than $200k in America.

And you will rarely even earn $100k. Like I live in a European capital and am just below $100k after almost 8 years of experience. We're just colonised by massive US corporations which ship the profits back to the US (and avoid as much tax as they can!).

> We're just colonised by massive US corporations which ship the profits back to the US (and avoid as much tax as they can!).

We're colonized by the over-regulation that doesn't appreciate entrepreneurship and stifles innovation. That's why big tech almost never starts in Europe. For better or for worse.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#622
post #311
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

> Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change.

But (in Western Europe at least) all jobs offer the same nice things: tons of vacation days, unions, paid overtime, healthcare. So switching jobs becomes only about: am I going to get significantly more money or not?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#623
post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked in a fintech D2C app, the distinction I drew was that there were 2 'products' - the financial product i.e getting 4% return on your money - the digital product i.e the app The 1st was the real product, the 2nd the nice-to-have Obviously core tech in banking is infinitely more critical than an app but the point is the same; the tech in banks, unless its 'quant', HFT or ML is not the money maker and there…

The app that people use to access their money is absolutely core tech. If the payment infrastructure goes down (or worse: is buggy), that's a massive problem. Banks that don't consider this core aren't keeping up.

[deleted]

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#624
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe it seems to have changed too. Salaries are still of course low compared to the US, but it seems the salaries are stabilising across the continent. I've been speaking to recruiters recently and a lot more companies are open to fully remote, even across borders. 10 years ago if you wanted the best salary in Europe you would need to go live in London, now there are plenty of companies hiring remotely across Eu…

some rough numbers from last year... very senior tech role - fully remote : * London : >100k pounds = ~120k E * Berlin : >90k E * Sofia : >50k E but, when applying the taxes thereof: * London : >120k E - 45% taxes -> 66k E * Berlin : >90k E - 45% taxes -> 50k E * Sofia : >50k E - 10-15% taxes -> 45k E Which means.. it mostly depends where you (want to) live.. as differences in price/culture of life are much more than…

Your calculation is way off, UK taxes are progressive but you don't just get a 45% once you reach the threshold - otherwise there would be salaries where it would be better to earn less than slightly more.

Here, the calculation: https://listentotaxman.com/?year=2021&taxregion=uk&married=f...

120K EUR is 79.7K E

PS: Also 120K EUR in the UK is NOT very senior.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#625
post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

> Is an extra $10k per year worth..

Extra X a year for a couple of year? No.

Extra X a year for the rest of your working life? Yes.

Consider that some employers anchor salaries to previous salaries ala "we won't pay you more than Y more than your previous salary" - so any raise represents an increase in all future offers.

So despite the downsides, working for a couple of years under a new salary has essentially increased your worth in the eyes of the market.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#627
There's more going on than that. A lot of companies are simply not great employers. They under-pay, under-appreciate, mis-manage, etc. These companies are going to end up paying a premium even for mediocre people. These companies tend to make things worse by having hiring policies that are setting them up for failure. Bad hiring policies ensure people won't even talk to you. You lose before the process even starts.

For example, I abort discussions gravitating towards "oh hey could you do this coding exercise" with a simple "No, I don't do coding exercises, ever. Good luck finding a junior engineer for your role.". I keep it polite but such a question basically means I'm talking to the wrong person that obviously has no idea why they should be begging on their knees for me to consider working for them.

The first contact should be with a decision maker that knows exactly why you are interesting for them. An HR person or recruiter does not qualify for this. Use them for screening CVs but don't ever let them do the initial out reach. If based on a CV, github profile, linkedin profile, etc. a you are not able to figure out why someone is interesting for a particular position or not willing to do the work to find that out, a phone call with an HR person is not going to be helpful. And if the match is obvious, you should move much more aggressively and faster.

Like everybody in the industry I get a lot of very poorly targeted outreach from completely clueless and incompetent recruiters. Most half decent engineers in this industry are busy, not looking, and blowing off recruiter spam on a daily basis. Inviting them to engage with your HR bureaucracy via some recruiter is a non-starter. The more qualified people are the less likely they are going to be interested in your coding exercises, screening mechanisms, job application bureaucracy, etc.

Cut all that bullshit and figure out what you want before even reaching out to someone and figure out how you differentiate from your competition (hundreds of other companies looking for the exact same thing). If some HR drone reaches out with some templated drivel, chances are extremely low that I even respond. It's not personal, I just don't have time to keep up with all the inbound nonsense I get. However, if a CTO of or engineering manager reaches out with a well motivated reason why I might be interested and what they are looking for, they'll get a reply and a conversation starts. I'm actually pretty approachable; you just need to do it right.

The way to fix hiring is to get HR and recruiters out of the loop as much and as early as possible. Their role is to screen and never to act as middle men. These people scare away all the good leads you might get, if any at all. They are the last persons you want people to talk to. In the case of HR quite literally, you involve them when you get to the salary negotiation phase. Screen based on the available resources. Use Google. Look at their Github profile, linkedin, etc. If you like what you see, make a plan for reaching out in the most effective way. E.g. find a way in via a mutual acquaintance (preferred) and be ready to move very quickly. If these people are available at all exactly when you need them, it's not going to be for very long. If they aren't, you need to be ready to really to sell leaving their comfy job for you. That starts with not treating them like numbers.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#628
post #559

I think there's something else that's necessary that doesn't align well with the things in the article, and which is currently lacking in my current work environment, but which is kind of hard to describe succinctly. Basically, my job requires using a lot of tools and technology and processes created by other people, but none of those tools are easy to use or well documented. In order to get stuff done you have to ha…

> My opinion is that once an organization is a certain size, everything really needs to be written down and easily accessible. I shouldn't have to regularly ask people how to do basic things, it should be on a wiki. If it's complicated, it should be in a training video, or a user manual.

This %100. Automate all the things, but for any part of the process that cannot be automated/scripted, write it down. And don't just put it in some random Google Doc or Sharepoint where it is lost forever in the ether. Put it in a README that lives with the code or have a shared Wiki for the team. It need to be somewhere that is generally available, searchable, version controlled, and easy to update.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#629
post #311
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

Some of those are nice things, indeed, but when you ballpark the hourly rates, you’re paying a very high price for them.

30 days PTO instead of 15 or 20 and being paid overtime instead of just being paid 3-5x as much with overtime being “included” isn’t obviously better to me.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#630
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a consultancy and see the other side of this. We do hire graduates and train them up. And put them to work for clients who can't resource their own work. And then we can't retain them as they get senior roles at other companies. I think a lot of companies are like an ecological niche that is tuned to a particular kind of candidate. That is actually part of the business model.

Well, if you train the people and do not offer them extra perks or raises after they "graduate", you are going to lose those people.

I am not complaining.

Someone in my team recently left because they wanted a short commute to a sociable office which we could not offer them. They had already been given a promotion and pay rise without having asked for it. And the company has all the normal career development stuff. Yes they "graduated" and that is fine. It was the right choice for them.

And our business model has limited flexibility in terms of salary anyway. We are honest about that. But it is still a good fun job with lots of oppurtunities within the company or in the wider industry. But their is always a risk that those graduates will be exploited and that risk does make me uneasy.

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