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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#541

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

svilen_dobrev wrote: post #509
fy20 wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe it seems to have changed too. Salaries are still of course low compared to the US, but it seems the salaries are stabilising across the continent. I've been speaking to recruiters recently and a lot more companies are open to fully remote, even across borders. 10 years ago if you wanted the best salary in Europe you would need to go live in London, now there are plenty of companies hiring remotely across Eu…

some rough numbers from last year... very senior tech role - fully remote : * London : >100k pounds = ~120k E * Berlin : >90k E * Sofia : >50k E but, when applying the taxes thereof: * London : >120k E - 45% taxes -> 66k E * Berlin : >90k E - 45% taxes -> 50k E * Sofia : >50k E - 10-15% taxes -> 45k E Which means.. it mostly depends where you (want to) live.. as differences in price/culture of life are much more than…

>but, when applying the taxes thereof:

And once you apply the CoL adjustments, the numbers further skew in favor of Eastern Europe.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#542

Post by louis___ »

pattusk wrote: post #40
hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

It seems you are over-generalizing. Maybe people are not like you.

> People will absolutely leave your company if they think they can get paid more elsewhere.

Maybe you will. Maybe they won't. Everyone has his own bar for "enough" money. For some there is no such bar.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#543

Post by wakeupcall »

hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

My take: at least in the places where I've been, IT tech in the last ~20 years was dominated by enthusiastic youngsters like me. CS and CS-related fields were the default go-to job in my circles around the '90ies, creating a large surplus. If you wanted a job in the beginning of your career, you had to accept either a crappy job or a low-paying one.

I've never seen in the eurozone the US-style crazy-high 100k+ salaries. In general, here an IT engineer hired fulltime fetches a rate which is comparable to many other regular jobs, and generally lower than other engineering positions. However the churn and stress is much, much higher in my career experience. We joke about JS, but almost everything around the IT has now super-fast refresh cycles which require never-ending honing of your skills just for the sake of it.

That initial candidate surplus is now starting to age and drain. These CS candidates have now a decades-old experience in the current tech stack which is worth gold, but are also tired of the churn. You can still get them, but be prepared to pay them a lot more. Many companies which were founded on entry-level salaries will now see their workforce explode in cost. This is going to be huge with the current inflation in the next 2-5 years, where your average company raise won't cut anymore and you're forced to jump ship to maintain your purchasing power.

The young talent is still there of course, but it's often more specialized than what I remember a few decades ago due to the growth of the field. This means that finding a good fit reduces your pool significantly, unless you accept your candidate will be learning for a long time.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#544

Post by rusticpenn »

pjmlp wrote: post #489
sascha_sl wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a Germany anecdote. >Healthcare That's definitely a you problem, the US is the outlier here. >30 paid holidays 24. Based on 6 day workweek. So 20. More is optional. >Unions, Paid overtime Rarely are there Unions specifically for the IT department. Employers here like "Vertrauensarbeitszeit", which means count your own hours, which usually ends up with you doing more (unpaid) work. >weekends and calls off work co…

Pick companies that have IG Metal deals, for example. Quite a well known names do it.

I am in a company which is part of IG Metal. Still does not work well. IG Metal does a lot of good for us though.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#545

Post by fleddr »

mcv wrote: post #439
pjmlp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

Despite all of that, I think engineers are underpaid in Europe (and presumably East Asia). I just left a job at a major bank where all the non-engineer roles got paid, or at least could be paid more than I got. There were 5 pay scales for engineers, the top 2 of which weren't even being used. I got there from a freelance contract, and I had to take a serious pay cut to continue working on the project. It was a really…

Agree. They didn't get the memo yet that tech rules the world. These companies are very traditional. Top-heavy, where finance, purchasing and sales dominate the company. That's where all the hot shots are and the big salaries.

Meanwhile, IT is an internal "cost centre", a necessary evil, a bunch of resources preferably outsourced.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#546

Post by demosito666 »

Hydraulix989 wrote: post #471
danbmil99 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not rainbows -- FAANG are out-bidding startups at every level. If you have a modicum of talent and a flair for interviews, they will gladly buy your soul for $250k/year + bennies from heaven.

That's just the first year out of school pay. It goes up to mid six figures quickly once you get a promotion or two.

Sorry for the flood, just a remark. As a devops engineer from Eastern Europe (with "senior" formal title) in a large international consultancy, these numbers sound like they are from another planet to me. $250k+/year to me sounds indistinguishable from $200000000000000000000/year.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#547

Post by Avalaxy »

baash05 wrote: post #453
ryandrake wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Once your needs and wants are met, every extra dollar can just get saved, and means less time until retirement. For this reason, there is never “a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore.” If you are already comfortable and have the trajectory to retire at 55, why not job hop if only to be able to retire at 45? To me, the only point where moar money is truly useless is the day you retire…

I think it's rather personal. I never plan to retire. I want to die coding. The extra cash isn't really a motivation. I've quit a job that I sort of liked, to take a job that paid 10k less, but was something I ended up loving. I didn't notice the difference in my spending habits.

> I never plan to retire. I want to die coding.

Yea, but:

1. Do you want to die coding for someone else, on boring enterprisey stuff with bad project managers telling you what to do?

2. What if you physical or mental health degrades when you're older, and you simply can't?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#549

Post by siva7 »

hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

This is classic HN bubble. I would estimate that most software engineers around the world never come into this luxury situation where you can say that money just isn't motivating you anymore when considering new job opportunities.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#550

Post by richrichardsson »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #530
richrichardsson wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unrestricted immigration The effect of immigration on wages is overblown. https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/

How so? If you have more people competing for the same job, then the wages go down, and vice-versa, the less potential employees you have, the higher the wages have to go to fill the position. The supply/demands fraction is basic math. Are you saying math doesn't work?

No, I'm saying research has shown that wages are depressed for some workers, but not by the levels the anti-immigration brigade would have you believe.
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