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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#511

Post by jack_riminton »

mcv wrote: post #491
vkk8 wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In banks the technical people are, in my experience, always second class citizens. They are expected to shut up and do what the business people tell them to do. They are not really responsible for anything or making decisions and are paid accordingly. The best paid technical people in banks are not people who are working on some cutting edge technology developing new stuff, but people who happen to be the only ones w…

Technical people are responsible for building and maintaining all the systems that handle the stuff that the business want done. And I also told business people what they should be doing. Seeing banks as a non-tech industry is a mistake in my opinion, and many banks do seem to agree that they should be a tech company. Many are active in tech communities, organise tech related events, and really seem to care about tec…

Having worked in a fintech D2C app, the distinction I drew was that there were 2 'products' - the financial product i.e getting 4% return on your money - the digital product i.e the app

The 1st was the real product, the 2nd the nice-to-have

Obviously core tech in banking is infinitely more critical than an app but the point is the same; the tech in banks, unless its 'quant', HFT or ML is not the money maker and therefore won't be paid as such

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#512

Post by nvarsj »

chifintech2021 wrote: post #390
exdsq wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone here earning $500k in their 20s like this person suggests? I’m sure some can but this is not the norm and expectations need to be checked and called out when wrong.

Most of the devs at prop trading companies in Chicago or New York will hit 500k/yr after a few years if they can hack it and stomach it. Depending on how close to the money they are, it could be 2-6 years.

Unless it changed dramatically in recent years, when I was in Chicago prop trading firms were paying mid 200 to 300 after a few years. 500k was definitely not normal comp for most engineers at any trading firm, although obviously there are exceptions.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#513

Post by jopsen »

pavlov wrote: post #25
greatpostman wrote: post #22

I just threatened to walk out at my current FAANG job. Crippling tech debt and unreasonable deadlines. Three levels of management apologized. Any other job market? They would probably be looking for a way to push me out. Very strong signal to me that the market is hot.

They’re probably also looking for a way to push you out now.

If you're polite about it, good managers want to know about crippling technical debt and unrealistic deadlines.

(* Not all managers are good)

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#514

Post by marvin »

nly wrote: post #462
eyjafjallajokul wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... If you are in your 20's, it is totally worth moving to the US where you can get paid 500K+ per year if you navigate your career efficiently. I posit that making this much money more than covers any of these additional expenses that you call out.

You say that like moving to the US is as easy as pie. Emigration to the US is incredibly difficult.

It depends. A friend of mine has been working for Microsoft in Ireland for a few years, and immigration to the US (green card track, two years if employed, I think) for him was practically a formality.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#515

Post by gyulai »

The theme that resonates most with me here in the comments is lack of willingness on the side of companies to actually develop talent. For example a personal career goal of mine is to finally bridge the gap from individual contributor into management. But nobody seems to be open to taking on a manager unless they have X-years of management experience, and the companies I've worked for have always preferred hiring managers from the job market rather than internally promoting individual contributors to management status.

If any company offered me a shot at management right now, despite the fact that I have no management experience, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#516

Post by Cthulhu_ »

somebodythere wrote: post #268
zuhayeer wrote: post #73

Money is actually a bigger deal than you think. A lot of people are in effect doubling their salaries by switching jobs right now. Even rewinding to just 5 years ago, there were much fewer companies flush with cash. Now with the hyper-capitalization of so many up-and-coming startups, a lot more companies are now at the bidding table for the same pool of candidates. And even large incumbents have big plans to double i…

In a certain kind of environment, maybe cool tech and loyalty could have been the tiebreaker for engineers in the job market, but it's very difficult to stare a 100% raise with similar WLB in the face and not think about making a move.

I mean, 100% raise for me would be unfathomable - that carries me over to five figures, which over here is high-end managerial compensation, definitely not something for a mediocre code monkey.

I mean, I'm not saying I'm mediocre, but I wouldn't pass a 'do you work with cool tech' (machine learning, crypto, iot, microservices?) or a leetcode test.

I can go back to Java though, I guess.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#517

Post by menaerus »

gdcbe wrote: post #406
pjmlp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

Dunno where you live but in Belgium: - That salary certainly does seem realistic, even though I'm on the higher end and have a base salary above that; - I also get the same amount of paid holidays, might be even a couple more; - we have great hospitality insurance, mutuality (general health care) has to be paid by ourselves however, even though that's cheap; - they do help me save for pension in the form of a contrib…

You haven't. That's the sad reality for devs living in the EU (or elsewhere but not in the States). 200k is also a bit generous, senior engineers that are specialized in tech do earn much much more than that, anywhere from 2x to 5x. Yes, 5x that amount for an engineer. I didn't believe this myself but that's really how it is.

However, given that more and more companies are becoming more open to WFH setting, it will hopefully make the things better for the devs outside the States.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#518

Post by prmoustache »

leeoniya wrote: post #341
kelnos wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just because you found 10k comments on the internet doesnt imply this sentiment applies to 7bn people. No, but at least the parent provided some kind of source to back up their assertion. Where's yours? I don't think it's safe to assume "nearly everyone who has kids don't have regrets". I went through a phase 5+ years ago where I was reading a lot about this sort of thing, and found that there are more people who r…

i've met plenty who have regretted the timing, or having 3+ kids instead of two. but never about having 1 kid instead of zero and it preventing their otherwise early retirement. having one kid will delay any kind of FIRE strategy significantly for all but the top 0.01%. the GP's argument is that people just dont have the willpower to make the necessary sacrifices to retire early...such as simply skipping having those…

As said earlier, this is a sentiment that is not socially accepted, so you will have a hard time finding examples or people admitting to it.

I have 2 daughters, I love them but in hindsight if I had to start over I don't think I would have kids. And it is not necessarily about the money. I realize I give up waaaay to much of my own needs and freedom. It may just be also about how I am. While many people will tell their kids to litterally go fuck themselves (well with different words) while they are watching football or leave them unattended while they go for a bicycle ride, I am one of those who will never say no when my daughters ask me to play or require assistance for some creative stuff. Yes I enjoy doing stuff with them but I'd rather go for a bicycle ride, play music or do carpentry. Thanksfully there are a few things we have in common, like playing basketball. Now that I am divorced and we share custody of the girls, it makes it feel somehow harder, as I can't just get away from my ex-wife. There is always something to negociate/organize. Thanksfully the pandemic has opened a lot of possibilities regarding work from home so I could change employer without having to move to another place but I'd rather use the remote work possibilities to become a digital nomad and travel all over the world. I would also be happy living in a camper moving from place to place every few weeks/months. Having kids while being separated from their mother makes it impossible.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#519

Post by donquichotte »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #458
pjmlp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

>30 paid holidays I'm always angered by these over-generalizations for the whole of Europe. Europe is not a single country with identical laws and working conditions but they differ wildly by borders. The minimum amount of vacation days by EU law is 20 per year for every full-time worker in the EU but workers can get more based on union negotiations of each individual country or individual company perks that wish to…

Beautiful, you put into writing what has been on my mind for quite some time.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#520

Post by Cthulhu_ »

Waterluvian wrote: post #15

I’ve gotten 7 recruitment emails since Sunday and none of them have come close to sufficiently explaining what the company or job is for me to even consider responding. It’s bizarre how secretive they are. I imagine the recruiters are looking out for their own interests. Recruiters are in the way.

That's just it, also in my neck of the woods. I don't get it. Aren't there companies that just hire one of their own, internal recruiters? That way, they can directly approach people going "Hi, I'm a recruiter for company X, I'm looking for an Y developer and you match our profile. This position's pay range is A - B. Would you like to have a quick chat with one of our engineers to see if this is a match for you?"

Instead I get wordy yet vague e-mails or dodgy calls where they don't dare drop the actual name of the companies until you've agreed to go on an interview. And of course, being recruiters instead of actual engineers, they don't actually know what they're talking about.

I just don't get it. I've only been approached by a 'first party' recruiter once, for Google Docs in Germany. I didn't want to relocate or work on Docs though so that was a pass for me, and that was after the 'shine' of Google had passed as well.

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