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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

cushychicken.github.io

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#421
post #411
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an unfortunate truth that Microsoft's pay between entry level to somewhere around principal is not competitive with a substantial number of companies. That is not to say that Microsoft doesn't provide other benefits, but top tier compensation is not one of them.

I don't mind. When I look at the vast majority of software engineering jobs out there even Microsoft compensation is good, and perfectly fine for Seattle. I used to work at Google too (in Mountain View). Believe it or not I liked working at Google and I also like working at Microsoft. I don't need to chase top tier compensation. I just do things I enjoy where I'm learning and my career can progress. Right now I'm mos…

to be clear i don't think you should mind if comp-maximization isn't your sole focus now (or ever).

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#422
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone here earning $500k in their 20s like this person suggests? I’m sure some can but this is not the norm and expectations need to be checked and called out when wrong.

I recently hit six figures at 20. By far not the norm.

There's a huge difference between 100k and 500k though.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#423
Well I have nothing useful to add other than my personal priorities for a job, in order of importance. I'm a whiney little bitch when it comes to this stuff.

People/Environment -- If I hate the people I'm working with, I'm not going to stick around long. I've quit jobs for that reason before, and I would do it again. I have a low tolerance for assholes. For example, worked for a vending machine OEM that shall not be named. Boss was filthy rich and said "oh we'll pay for you to go out here to X!" and then had me ride a fucking Greyhound. I should have bailed right then and there, but I gave it a try, since I was young and fairly new to actually getting paid for my work. Guy had a new secretary every other week, and they always looked like they were one sharp comment away from swan-diving into a wood chipper. I've never seen office workers with that much terror in their eyes and voices before. Needless to say, I didn't stay with him long. Paid well, but getting technical specs, tools, and the data I needed for projects was like pulling teeth from a methed-out rhinoceros, and that proved to be the last straw. I remember once I was told to my horror and disbelief that they had literally completely lost core technical specs that I needed for the project, then they wanted to know why work was progressing slowly. At that point I just quit. Tried to ship his equipment back to him but the cheap motherfucker wouldn't even pay for the shipping, then just stopped talking to me when I asked him to. Guess he didn't care about the vending machine parts. Ironically they were worth more than the shipping, and totally worthless to me.

Integrity -- I look for a company that isn't actively making the world a worse place. I don't mind boring code, as long as I can write it well and be proud of what I've created at the end of the day. What I do mind, however, is predatory practices, unethical dark patterns, and user-hostile design and terms of service. If I think you're Facebook 2 Electric Boogaloo, I won't apply in the first place. If I think you're the "good guys" however, you'll have undying loyalty. *Sidenote: Sickens me to hear that so many of my fellow developers are willing to worsen the world for an extra zero on their check.*

Technology -- You must be asking me to use a language/toolkit/etc that won't make me want to blow my brains out every day at 5:01pm. I can work with tools and languages I don't particularly like, but do not, for example, ask me to build you an Electron app, PHP backend, or Java app. I will walk rather than endure that. Maybe some help in an emergency, but if you make that my main duty, I'm done. I'm fussy, but that's just me. It's very important to me personally to be able to respect the tools I'm using.

Autonomy -- I hate being micromanaged. I'm not incompetent. I've created programs with hundreds of thousands of lines of C++ and Python code by myself. If you second-guess every tiny decision I make over long periods, I will descend into quietly loathing you at the very least.

Money? -- I'm not a greedy person, but don't insult me. At least pay me something close to market. There's great irony in that statement right now, as I'm not making even close to what I'm supposed to (basically poverty wages for some of these months), as I'm trying to help a tiny startup keep its head above water because the boss is actually a decent guy and someone I respect. I suppose it illustrates just how much the kind of people I work with matters to me.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... If you are in your 20's, it is totally worth moving to the US where you can get paid 500K+ per year if you navigate your career efficiently. I posit that making this much money more than covers any of these additional expenses that you call out.

I will bite. Show me links to the data on this.

https://levels.fyi

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#425
post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

>Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss?

Not to mention how much effort has to be put into the interview process, my time is worth money, I'm not giving away minimum 6 hours of it for free if I don't need to.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#427
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone here earning $500k in their 20s like this person suggests? I’m sure some can but this is not the norm and expectations need to be checked and called out when wrong.

Most of the devs at prop trading companies in Chicago or New York will hit 500k/yr after a few years if they can hack it and stomach it. Depending on how close to the money they are, it could be 2-6 years.

The fact we’re specifying specific types of roles in specific cities indicates it’s not a case of “just moving to the US to earn $500k”

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#428
post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

Money is always a hygiene factor, not a motivating factor. Classic Herzberg.

Money just needs to be enough. After that you have enrich the job sufficient to hook people in.

Perhaps the first thing a business needs to do before it starts hiring is learn how to hire.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#429
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... If you are in your 20's, it is totally worth moving to the US where you can get paid 500K+ per year if you navigate your career efficiently. I posit that making this much money more than covers any of these additional expenses that you call out.

Anyone here earning $500k in their 20s like this person suggests? I’m sure some can but this is not the norm and expectations need to be checked and called out when wrong.

I was in startup land over in SF, so my salary topped out lower at 160k USD but with ~2% equity.

I was in a partnership in a small plane, and one of the guys was "in his 20's making $500k+" at google as an L6 plus retention bonus. Several engineers in my circle (early 30's) are on $500k+.

Currently I'm living in Europe but leaving back to SF. I tell people all the time about salaries in the US and point them to levels.fyi, but these salaries are so detached from their realities that they seem simply unable to believe them. Go look at levels.fyi, it matches very well with what I've heard on the ground.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#430
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone here earning $500k in their 20s like this person suggests? I’m sure some can but this is not the norm and expectations need to be checked and called out when wrong.

I recently hit six figures at 20. By far not the norm.

The gap between 250 and 500 is far wider than 0 and 250. Six figures at 20 is awesome but it’s not continuous explosive growth
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