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Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

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Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#131

Post by JetAlone »

vanusa wrote: post #120
JetAlone wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the poster above is suggesting something much more nuanced than that. I think they're trying to say that the anthropologists do know what they research, to the best of their abilities. However, I think they're suggesting that anthropology projects are less likely to get funding if the likely reported results would heavily suggest theories that are ultimately critical of whichever seated establishment funded t…

I don't think it was that nuanced, actually. Basically it came down to an attempt at FUD: "Everyone is biased, you can't really trust anyone, therefore I don't need to acknowledge of any of the substantive points you are making." Misdirection, in other words.

I'm trying to imagine a good counterargument to anonporridge's actual stated position. If they're fundamentally wrong about violence as the legitimizing factor of authority, then there has to be some more important/more powerful legitimizing factor. Something that trumps violence without using violence or the threat of it.

What works in the place of violence? Escape? Maybe you can have a diaspora society willing to run away and rebuild in any territory it can ever reach and live in. Nullifying defense? Say you have some kind of structure or device that makes you invincible without fighting back and all violence against you is a pointless waste of energy. Then you could just be, and voluntarily agree to some social contract you never use violence to uphold. Love? Maybe all violence could hypothetically be stopped if the violent person's emotions could be negotiated with to circumvent their desires and everyone ends up happy. These all seem totally utopian to depend on 100% purely at a societal level, but these are all nonviolent approaches I know people take to resist violence on a practical 1 to 1 level.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#132

Post by ForOldHack »

Nice. I got a visit from someone in Brazil, who was teaching programming in the San Paulo. I looked at a picture of a bunch of his students, and most of them were women. He was teaching them to solder. I immediately took about a $20, and handed it to him. I think its time we send him a care package.

Garoa Hacker Clube

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#133

Post by ForOldHack »

speeder wrote: post #32
TameAntelope wrote: post #6

How the hell do they run these operations or have this amount of gear safely in a favela? When I did a full-on tourist experience of Rio, the guides were adamant that we not even go near any favela, as we'd immediately be robbed or worse. My understanding was that the crime in those areas was so astronomically high that nothing even resembling IT infrastructure could exist, as it would immediately be confiscated by t…

I am from Brazil and to be honest the government push for this is kinda silly. There are other problems to solve first. There was an event I participated about this, I was teaching about gamedev using opensource tools, a lot of people paid to go, the government then brought in a ton of people from the favelas as part of their "digital inclusion" program, although I was happy to teach them, later I heard many of them…

"I am from Brazil and to be honest the government push for this is kinda silly. " Wow. On the ground. Please tell us much more.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#134

Post by JetAlone »

anonporridge wrote: post #122
JetAlone wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the poster above is suggesting something much more nuanced than that. I think they're trying to say that the anthropologists do know what they research, to the best of their abilities. However, I think they're suggesting that anthropology projects are less likely to get funding if the likely reported results would heavily suggest theories that are ultimately critical of whichever seated establishment funded t…

This is right. Everyone is a slave to their incentives. You have to weed through multiple narratives of different perspectives if you want a chance of piecing together "the truth", whatever that actually means.

I get it; you want to avoid circularity. Unfortunately there's always going to be some in our conjectures, because we're all humans almost always trying to justify some set of implementations of human societies because we like the incentivized benefits of collective organization. People reach for something they think is truer than their own context to guide them. For vanusa, that's the value of knowledge, developed in academic institutions. I don't blame them for that.

I think "the truth" means what brings us simultaneously to the greatest understanding, peace, respect for existence and consciousness, freedom from misery, and victory over cruelty. Anything that, over the long run, takes these away in greater amounts than it gives them back is a falsehood. If truth is not this thing, then why ought we seek it in the first place? I think that's how we can all be less of a slave to our incentives (except the incentive for the truth), even if they are to spread FUD and assert our own objective correctness :>

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#135

Post by alephnan »

wolverine876 wrote: post #116
marcan_42 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, assuming your experiences are shared to some extent with everyone else's is a pretty human thing to do. It's also a particularly American thing to do, perhaps for cultural reasons. My point is this isn't a hypothetical; you can walk around Tokyo at night and be fine.

> I mean, assuming your experiences are shared to some extent with everyone else's is a pretty human thing to do. It's also a particularly American thing to do, perhaps for cultural reasons. You really have no idea what you are talking about, but don't let it stop you.

I think you're the one who has no idea what you are talking about and should just accept that you're wrong.

> I wouldn't recommend [wandering around like a clueless tourist, late at night] in any part of any city.

I have lived in Tokyo, NYC, San Francisco for at least 2 years each. Tokyo is a concrete and non-hypothetical counterexample to your proposition.

> We can always construct hypothetical situations that meet some criteria.

How is not recommending going to dangerous neighborhoods in America a hypothetical situation? There is statistical data and crime maps. You cannot deny that.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#136

Post by trembonator »

TameAntelope wrote: post #6

How the hell do they run these operations or have this amount of gear safely in a favela? When I did a full-on tourist experience of Rio, the guides were adamant that we not even go near any favela, as we'd immediately be robbed or worse. My understanding was that the crime in those areas was so astronomically high that nothing even resembling IT infrastructure could exist, as it would immediately be confiscated by t…

No post body was provided.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#137

Post by qwerty456127 »

TameAntelope wrote: post #6

How the hell do they run these operations or have this amount of gear safely in a favela? When I did a full-on tourist experience of Rio, the guides were adamant that we not even go near any favela, as we'd immediately be robbed or worse. My understanding was that the crime in those areas was so astronomically high that nothing even resembling IT infrastructure could exist, as it would immediately be confiscated by t…

> How the hell do they run these operations or have this amount of gear safely in a favela?

BTW Netflix even produced a whole 4-season dystopian scifi TV show about how resourceful young people from Brazil's favelas can be - "3%". It's quite watchable and provides some interesting clues.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#138

Post by brabel »

rightbyte wrote: post #70
speeder wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from Brazil and to be honest the government push for this is kinda silly. There are other problems to solve first. There was an event I participated about this, I was teaching about gamedev using opensource tools, a lot of people paid to go, the government then brought in a ton of people from the favelas as part of their "digital inclusion" program, although I was happy to teach them, later I heard many of them…

How could the congressman influence the recording permit process? What new car goes for 10k? I believe you it is bad but that sounds like your friend is spreading a tall tale.

Cars in Brazil are more expensive than in the USA. For 10K you can't buy even the cheapest car.

10K is not even a lot of money, most professionals earn more than that per month (I am thinking that's 10K Reais, not Dollars... with the devaluation of the currency, 10K dollars would actually be a lot of money now, around 55K reais... it used to be closer to 1-to-1 not long ago!).

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#139

Post by hoseja »

vanusa wrote: post #82
anonporridge wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our history books tend to glorify ancient gangs and call them things like "nobles" and "royalty". But if you look beneath the veneer, they were gangs very much like the street gangs and crime organizations we have now. History is written by the victors.

Actually it's written by anthropologists. If you look at how our species came to self-organize, there has always been a strong component of innate, voluntary cooperation (and of course violent subjugation as well). It's a mixed bag for sure, but I just think your characterization is way too oversimplified -- and it probably wouldn't get too far you tried to pass it by people who have devoted their lives to studying t…

That innate voluntary cooperation stops at the tribe level. Further you need organized violence and focused indoctrination.

Re: Young people from Brazil's favelas set out to conquer digital world

#140

Post by newby »

JetAlone wrote: post #131
vanusa wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it was that nuanced, actually. Basically it came down to an attempt at FUD: "Everyone is biased, you can't really trust anyone, therefore I don't need to acknowledge of any of the substantive points you are making." Misdirection, in other words.

I'm trying to imagine a good counterargument to anonporridge's actual stated position. If they're fundamentally wrong about violence as the legitimizing factor of authority, then there has to be some more important/more powerful legitimizing factor. Something that trumps violence without using violence or the threat of it. What works in the place of violence? Escape? Maybe you can have a diaspora society willing to r…

The problem I see in anonporridge's argumentation is that it seems to ignore the question of legitimacy. Using terms like "gangs' implies criminality, right? (not native English speaker, correct me if I am wrong). Not all violence is criminal. Not all violence is perceived as illegitimate. There are scenarios of monopoly on violence I would certainly not label as 'gangs' - obeying the pharaoh because he is believed to be a God, respecting the leader of the tribe because he is the most experienced hunter who can use his knowledge and physical strength to provide food for the tribe...
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