In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company
A bit tangential, but New York City has an operating steam system that's still widely used by commercial customers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_steam_system
Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
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Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
Zeppelins with modern materials and technology would be very, very cool. I'd ride in one.
What would be even cooler is zeppelins with swimming pools and jacuzzis while you take in the views of the sky.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, the industrial revolution was powered this way. Water wheels and steam engines as central power plants, with power distributed mechanically.
My understanding is that this paradigm was incredibly dangerous, with a lot of workers losing hands and arms in accidents. Turning on or off a given machine involved physically putting the belt on or pulling it off, and you could easily get caught in it. A very clever system for the technology of the day, but it's good we don't use it anymore, at least without more advanced safety mechanisms and practices.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#244Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#245Does this technology only work in select places or are underground caverns fairly commonplace?
Appropriate natural caverns do exist, but are not common. One of the main differentiating factor between this approach and others is that they drill a man-made borehole rather than depending on finding a pre-existing cavern.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#246Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is pretty common in regular workshops. Compressed air powers drills, riveting machines, sprays guns, jack hammers... Tools powered by compressed air are simpler (no electronics), more durable and cheaper.
My favourite thing about air tools was not having to worry about batteries (most electric hand tools I've used are battery only so no opportunity to use an extension lead like you use an air hose)
For me, I like air powered tools because of their power and reliability. They'll almost always have more torque and power than similar electric tools.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
Lithium Ion is not sustainable for the long term - we have neither the materials nor the manufacturing to not only keep up what would be required for full scale car and grid uses, but don't forget Lithium Ion batteries have a finite lifespan and need to be replaced. The more you put into service, the more you have to manufacture beyond just the batteries needed for new requirements.
I'm not sure that your predictions will hold here. More lithium is discovered as demand grows, and there have been huge additions to known reserves in just the past few years. Looking at current numbers and saying "that's it" is clearly wrong, and given its overall abundance and lack of demand until now, it's a really strong prediction to say that we won't have enough for at least 500TWh of storage, if not more. Manu…
Especially for electric cars - without something like a supercapacitor or hydrogen that can charge quickly and doesn't have massive battery pack replacement costs built in to the total cost of ownership equation, electric cars are not going to become mainstream; they will remain fringe oddities.
FYI if you aren't aware of super capacitors there has been significant progress in bringing them to scale: https://undecidedmf.com/episodes/revisiting-the-supercapacit...
I don't think Lithium is going away tomorrow - but I think it's crazy to bank on it for all our future needs or pitch it for grid storage. If it was so viable for grid storage then where are the really large deployments at scale? As you point out its mature tech. Someone would have scaled up production and done it already if it was such a no brainer. If Elon thought he could make more money at it than cars or space do you not think he would already be there focusing on it vs. those other ventures? Heck at one point Elon was thinking of doing his own candy but didn't since he didn't find anything really revolutionary enough to separate his potential offering from what was already out there. So it's not like he has a super narrow focus only on what he's already working on, and he already has a ton of in-house knowledge about lithium ion batteries.
That a company with as high knowledge of lithium battery tech like Tesla is only tangentially focused on grid power solutions instead of heavily diving in is, I think, one of the larger tells out there. And do you think Tesla would still be as successful if it didn't have substantial tax incentives? That's a distortion that's often overlooked when talking about overall economic viability.
There is far more than just raw resource availability or basic manufacturing capabilities at play here - and grid scale requirements just amplify those issues. I dunno why so many people are so eager to hand wave the limited lifetime of chemical batteries but it's a significant issue; any tech that doesn't have 100% replacement over a short fixed lifetime is going to beat the pants off of chemical batteries over the long haul. It isn't even remotely close. Utilities think in 50 year lifetimes, not 5. These aren't solutions for cars; this is base infrastructure that's COSTLY. There is probably some maintenance with these compressed air solutions, but I'm pretty confident it's no where near that of being forced to replacing the most expensive part of your entire storage solution every X years.
Just look at the value of a used electric cars vs. new. As people are learning about battery pack replacement costs or especially with Tesla, limited options on repair/partial replacement and probably loosing access to supercharging(one of the biggest reasons to pick Tesla right now), used prices on electric cars have steadily declined (and that's being a bit polite). When you have someone blowing up a used Tesla because they feel it's not economically viable to replace the battery pack, that' an issue that shouldn't just be hand waved away https://carbuzz.com/news/fed-up-tesla-owner-blows-up-his-mod...
All of this is in its infancy, but chemical batteries are already in a pretty deep hole from an economics perspective. Unless there is a breakthrough on preventing dendrite formation that dramatically (dramatically!) increases the lifespan of chemical batteries they are a transitory but not long term solution.
Supercapacitors aren't without their issues. You can fill them up instantly (if you have the means to move that much energy that quickly!) but they can also discharge all their energy instantly - which is a great way to also describe a bomb. So things like that will have to be worked out to make them safe - but I see that as far less of a problem than dealing with the perpetual churn of chemical batteries.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you have a source for that increase? I was not able to find it. Seems very suspect considering that the earths outer crust is approximately 20 to 30 miles thick. Are you suggesting that if we go approximately halfway through the outer crust, say 15 miles, the temperature is going to be 725 degrees warmer than surface temp?
https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/crust/ Not sure about the rate per-mile, but literally it's that hot, yes, but not even 15 miles. Just down 5-7km under the oceans, for example at the Mohorovičić discontinuity the temp ranges from 392 to 752F.
In the Nat Geo article they quote a mine in South Africa reaching up to 55C (131 F) at the bottom and the mine is 4km deep. At a rate 3 degrees Celsius per 100m it should be 120 degrees Celsius over ambient. Which obviously does not add up.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#249Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#250I’m not an electrical engineer. But, thinking about the power storage/retrieval problem with a computer engineer’s lens, I can draw a parallel to data storage/retrieval. L1/L2/L3 caches - expensive, small, but fast. RAM - mid tier, still fast, bigger than cache, less expensive than cache, but limited in capacity compared to disk/flash based storage. SSDs… Disks…. You get the point. Would it be the same with the grid?…
Sounds trivial enough, now someone just has to built it all. Jokes aside though everything has pros and cons. For storing large amounts of energy from the grid, are you sure lithium batteries make sense? Take a look at this, it's not a scientific article but it gives you a basic overview of the problems we'd face when storing energy in lithium batteries at scale: https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/storage/lithium-o…
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/09/08/interconnection-queue...
And if you check out RV and boat forums, you'll find that small scale lithium ion batteries plus solar are enabling a huge change in power for these mobile applications, because it's just damn cheap these days.