In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company
Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
181–190 of 325 posts
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#182Has anybody considered building flywheels into each wind turbine?
If you're thinking of a direct mechanical linkage, you wouldn't want to put it up on the tower because the mass to effectively store megawatt-scale power is way more than you'd want to support up high. Also, since the wind blade usually swivels to the wind, you'd want to avoid the rotational inertia. So, you'd need a mechanical linkage to transmit the power to the ground, maybe installing it under the tower base.
You would not want to use a direct mechanical attachment, i.e., resembling a combustion engine - transmission flywheel, because this would impair the ability of the wind turbine to start. Generally, turbines are designed for minimum inertia to easily start in low-wind conditions. A direct connection would impede that.
Now, we're adding a clutch-sort of mechanism, and that has its own additional complexity, weight, and energy.
Moreover, considering that we're trying to store megawatt-scale energies, we are at a large mass spinning very fast, and probably spun up with an electric motor.
So, it would seem the best way to do that would be to make a flywheel farm, with the flywheels below ground to contain failures. At this point, why locate it in the probably inconvenient location where the wind turbines are located, and instead put it somewhere more convenient, such as nearer to the consumption areas?
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
I had a similar idea for repurposing an old mining operation. You take a closed gold, uranium or copper mine which is 1000-2000 meters deep. You create a nuclear rector at the bottom with "fire and forget" design. Only robots can do the maintenance. After 60 years you disable it, pour concrete into the shaft and move to the next location. If it melts, who cares? It's not gonna poison water supply. Why was this not bu…
You need a hot and cold reservoir to generate power. Where is the heat going to go? This is why power plants are often built on rivers or near the ocean.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#184Advanced Nuclear is of $72/MWh.
Wind onshore $30/Mwh
Solar photovoltaic (PV) $30/Mwh
Lithium-ion battery storage is roughly $180/Mwh.
At the moment, if you want to provide baseload better than nuclear using renewables, the cost must of storage must not exceed $30-$40/Mwh.
(grid baseload is the minimum level of demand on an electrical grid over a span of time, something unvarying power plants are best suited for. Renewables require storage and advanced grid to provide baseload.)
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm guessing not. Earth's heat is way lower down. Think of a cave: always cold. I think what's going on is they're taking the heat out and storing it more efficiently than just dumping it down the ground, where (1) it would leak away, representing energy loss, and (2) as it leaks away, the air would lose pressure. (It would leak away b/c it's harder to insulate an entire mine, basically.) So, they pull it out ahead o…
This comment is an example of why I’ve become skeptical of the downvote button. It sounds like people read it, knew better, and politely pointed out that it was incorrect. Everyone who might have shared the same misapprehension learned something and the parent wasn’t being an asshole. Doesn’t that add to the discussion?
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#186Based on my reading, these systems are, at best, in the order of 60% efficient. To state the obvious, this means that fully 40% of the energy they pull from the grid will be wasted. Burned. Never to be recovered. How is that a good idea? Solar? Well, solar isn't free energy. What's the comparison to grid scale batteries for storage? That process is far more favorable, with efficiency exceeding 80%. I have to admit no…
Sadly I think it will be far more feasible to develop energy storage technologies than hope we can ever get enough people to be rational about nuclear. I mean how asinine is it for Germany to have turned off perfectly working and economically viable nuclear plants to then be dependent on RUSSIA for natural gas? How dumb do you have to be to be to think that's a REMOTELY good idea? Yet here we are (thankfully France seems to be far more rational - you don't hear them even suggesting they plan to be equally idiotic).
Many battery storage studies don't account for replacement/maintenance, or the infrastructure that would be required to sustain replacement/maintenance at grid scale, let alone the resources required to scale up to handle initial deployment of batteries in sufficient quantities to support the entire grid. Where are we going to get the manufacturing capacity, let alone materials? The scale here is pretty mind boggling if you start to do the math.
Our current battery tech is nothing more than a transitory technology - they are far from sustainable long term. Personally I think super capacitors will be our ultimate solution, but in the meantime if these guys really have dealt with the seepage issues of compressed air, this is are next best bet for MASS energy storage at scale. You only have the privilege of worrying about efficiency if you have a working system. Wood driven steam sucked, but it drove the industrial revolution because there was literally no other viable alternative at the time that could have remotely scaled in the same way.
Remember grid scale solutions require MASSIVE energy capabilities. The scale here is ridiculous compared to home or vehicle energy requirements. If you don't think Goldman Sachs took all of this into account before they made their investment - well, you are grossly mistaken. You don't get to be their size by continually placing bad bets.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
It says repurposing old mining operations. Not sure how feasible that is.
I had a similar idea for repurposing an old mining operation. You take a closed gold, uranium or copper mine which is 1000-2000 meters deep. You create a nuclear rector at the bottom with "fire and forget" design. Only robots can do the maintenance. After 60 years you disable it, pour concrete into the shaft and move to the next location. If it melts, who cares? It's not gonna poison water supply. Why was this not bu…
Having nuclear stuff underground requires extremely precise geological surveys, so that the stuff does not wind up in aquifer.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
You need a hot and cold reservoir to generate power. Where is the heat going to go? This is why power plants are often built on rivers or near the ocean.
you need to pump water, probably flooding 80% of the mine. Since there are no humans involved 70+ celsius is not a problem.
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
Naive question but couldn't our forerunners who otherwise succumbed to cold in harsher climates have exploited this fact to dig subterranean villages and towns? What's the element I'm missing as to why they didn't?
Ever tried to dig down a few 100m in your garden?
Re: Goldman Sachs invests $250M in compressed air energy storage
#190In early 20th century in London there was an alternative hydraulic "power grid" with plants (aka pumps), storages and an underground distribution network of pipes. A building, for example, could connect to high pressure water mains and use it to power elevators. Electricity eventually won, but it's interesting to see an idea coming back. Zeppelins next! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company
Zeppelins with modern materials and technology would be very, very cool. I'd ride in one.