The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

Post by carapace » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #190

transpute wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all you have to do is connect to/crack someone's WiFi and use it to get a layout of all their neighbor's places. It's much worse: neither crack nor connection is required. The technology is entirely passive, it only uses reflections from Wi-Fi radios, same as radar. No connection to the router is required, hence the acronym DFWS (Device-Free Wireless Sensing). To be clear, this can be done today with $20 ESP32 WiFi…

> The Wi-Fi 7 Sensing draft standard is proposing to make this available to everyone. As your sentence before this says, it already is available to everyone. The only thing wifi 7 opens up is someone with less technical know-how being able to flash openwrt and install some program that extracts and/or visualizes the sensing data, but $20 ESP32's isn't much of a cost to someone looking to use radio wave sensing malici…

Post by aaron695 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

jagger27 wrote: post #40

I'm surprised that there's not a single comment here about 802.11ay which is also 60GHz. Each channel on that standard can do something like 40Gbps, which is nuts. From Wikipedia[0]: > The link-rate per stream is 44 Gbit/s, with four streams this goes up to 176 Gbit/s. Yes, it can't penetrate walls, but is huge for point to point communication. Think VR headset bandwidth, file transfers between devices, wireless back…

Post by pizza » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #186

transpute wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

802.11bf Wi-Fi 7 Sensing works with all frequencies, 2.4 and up. Even if Neighbor 2 turns off their router, Neighbor 1 could passively use the radio waves from Neighbor 3's router to surveil reflections from Neighbor 2, including keyboard typing, heartrate/breathing, location and physical activity. Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27123493

The problem with this neighbor-spying fear is that "complex math using data from radio waves to sense stuff" is already possible and readily available by anyone willing to study and put in the world of building it, wifi 7 isn't suddenly enabling that part of rf analysis or mathematics.

Post by throwawayForMe2 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

tagoregrtst wrote: post #176

jagger27 wrote: post #40

I'm surprised that there's not a single comment here about 802.11ay which is also 60GHz. Each channel on that standard can do something like 40Gbps, which is nuts. From Wikipedia[0]: > The link-rate per stream is 44 Gbit/s, with four streams this goes up to 176 Gbit/s. Yes, it can't penetrate walls, but is huge for point to point communication. Think VR headset bandwidth, file transfers between devices, wireless back…

I cant see through walls with a lightbulb. I can with wifi. This standard makes my wifi router into an internet connected, closed source blob, light bulb and camera that is impossible to obscure (without killing my internet connection). Sure, I can wire my whole house for ethernet. And, while I’m behind the drywall, I might as well rip off all the drywall put a layer of Al. Here’s a business idea - drywall with alumi…

Post by barbazoo » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 5:30 PM UTC

Ginden wrote: post #154

barbazoo wrote: post #5

The only real practical example is fall detection, what's the real purpose of this?

> The only real practical example is fall detection, what's the real purpose of this? I can think of few real world applications. Eg. I have autism and air filter. Air filter working on full power is very uncomfortable for me, but with position sensing, it can be configured to run more often when I'm not in room. Motion sensing isn't exactly a solution, because I can be very still. Automated light management is sensi…