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Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

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Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#71

Post by zozbot234 »

lumost wrote: post #42
prmoustache wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see where it is not ethical. At any point you can decide to pursue or stop maintaining the code and anyone can decide to fork and take over. It is just naive to think you will always find fun in working on it or pretend you might make a living out of it unless you have a strong business plan.

In the case of industrial control, database tech, and other high cost fields it would be dubious to pitch an open source product and then abandon it. Getting a high adoption OSS project takes more than putting a repo on GitHub. In some cases like this one, it’s possible that the underlying cost of these activities is much closer to the licensed proprietary software than the OSS variant (aka free)

> In the case of industrial control, database tech, and other high cost fields it would be dubious to pitch an open source product and then abandon it.

Why? Open source projects are released with "NO WARRANTY", which includes the possibility of dropping maintenance at any time. If you want continued support you either fork the project and DIY, or pay someone to support you.

Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#72

Post by mason55 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #71
lumost wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of industrial control, database tech, and other high cost fields it would be dubious to pitch an open source product and then abandon it. Getting a high adoption OSS project takes more than putting a repo on GitHub. In some cases like this one, it’s possible that the underlying cost of these activities is much closer to the licensed proprietary software than the OSS variant (aka free)

> In the case of industrial control, database tech, and other high cost fields it would be dubious to pitch an open source product and then abandon it. Why? Open source projects are released with "NO WARRANTY", which includes the possibility of dropping maintenance at any time. If you want continued support you either fork the project and DIY, or pay someone to support you.

And that is not something the companies using the software are interested in.

This isn’t like a software company taking over some abandonware tool that they rely on. Building and maintaining software is not in the wheelhouse of these companies. They’d rather spend more or have fewer features in exchange for lowering risk.

Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#73

Post by ensignavenger »

jsiepkes wrote: post #2

I truely feel for the guy. Reading the blog it seems like the age old story of having a superior product (drastically cut cost, better performance, etc.). However getting managers at customers to stick their neck out for it is hard. Because they know (and to a degree I can't say I blame them) changing such a critical piece of core infrastructure is going to be stressful. And what's in it for them if the company saves…

Proprietary solution never cost "only" money. You generally have to negotiate licensing, then you have to renegotiate licensing when you need to make a change (or when you current terms expire). You have to invest effort into understanding your license (Open Source licenses are usually at least somewhat standardized and usually a lot short than proprietary licenses). Finally, the big kicker is vendor lock-in. If the vendor doesn't want to or can't support you business anymore, you have no choice but to replace their software. If the vendor want to change their terms, you can't find some one else to support you. If a vendor changes the product, you can't fork it to continue using it the way you need to.

I have never seen a proprietary software product that "only" cost money.

Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#74

Post by mfer »

jsiepkes wrote: post #2

I truely feel for the guy. Reading the blog it seems like the age old story of having a superior product (drastically cut cost, better performance, etc.). However getting managers at customers to stick their neck out for it is hard. Because they know (and to a degree I can't say I blame them) changing such a critical piece of core infrastructure is going to be stressful. And what's in it for them if the company saves…

Companies choosing a piece of software is more than the quality of the software. A superior piece of software isn't enough.

For example, many companies want (and sometimes require) the ability to have a support contract with developers for things this critical. The people making these decisions may not even be technical and close to the system within the management structure.

Companies also may have rules and requirements that govern who they can pay and how. For example, just donating money to a developer some developers in their company like or use the software of isn't going to fly. In some countries it may not even be legal. Sometimes you need to run things as a business and jump through some hoops to make it all work financially and without burn out.

Some of this is just how the business world works. With so many businesses in so many different legal jurisdictions there's almost no way to change the system.

Skilled trades people who strike out on their own have to learn enough business to operate. It's not just about doing their skill. There's a fair amount of mentoring that happens to help people learn that stuff. Maybe we need more of that in software.

Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#75

Post by phkahler »

This strikes me weird. This software seems to be under the "Apache" umbrella. But this guys last plea for support is on his own blog. Beyond the "how do we fund open source" thing in the piece, I'm left with too many "what's going on" questions around this. Does Apache support it? Why or why not?

Getting back to the blog, he says the comms piece is his unique selling point. OK, so people don't want to support the open part but yet it's missing a rather important piece. Is that correct? The whole thing just left me a bit confused.

Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#76

Post by Devasta »

phoronixrly wrote: post #21

Developments like this one and the faker.js and colors.js fiasco from last week have made me rethink my position about licensing. Now it seems to me that releasing code you wrote for free under a permissive open-source license is somewhere between ill-advised and unethical. On one hand it will not benefit you in any way, on the other, it will be incorporated in a company's proprietary project thus lowering the expens…

No one except the most credulous buffoons really believed the "MIT is more free" nonsense about the GPL, it is, was, and always will be a push to move away from "Free as in Freedom" to "Free as in Free Tech Support".

Large Corps won't use your code if its AGPL? Thats a feature, code away without worrying about breaking anything!

Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#77

Post by charcircuit »

glogla wrote: post #51
charcircuit wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with lowering the time it takes to develop closed source software? Closed source software solves people's problems. By making it easier to make, more of people's problems can be solved. There can be less time spent where multiple people remake the same exact thing over and over again.

Maybe. Or maybe you are just helping the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Whether proprietary software is a force for good or just another mechanism of exploitation is a matter of opinion, and the GP might not share yours.

As a child starting from $0 I built up almost all of the money I have now doing contract work by making closed source software using open source software. Being able to quickly make things without even having to spend any money is great for someone with no money. It didn't make me poorer as someone with $0, it made me much richer. I know my software was a positive to the lives of many people even if it is closed source.

Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#78

Post by rbanffy »

akerl_ wrote: post #57
phoronixrly wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're getting into technicalities here, but in my opinion the ethical thing to do is to share your code freely for everyone else to use, however at the same time use a license that requires them to do the same with any code they derive from yours. This is absolutely nothing new, ref. the GPL.

It’s clear that your preference is that people do that. What’s not clear is why the MIT license and closed source software are unethical. Not everything we dislike is a violation of ethics.

> What’s not clear is why the MIT license and closed source software are unethical.

Is it ethical to allow unethical behavior?

Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#79

Post by kevindong »

phkahler wrote: post #75

This strikes me weird. This software seems to be under the "Apache" umbrella. But this guys last plea for support is on his own blog. Beyond the "how do we fund open source" thing in the piece, I'm left with too many "what's going on" questions around this. Does Apache support it? Why or why not? Getting back to the blog, he says the comms piece is his unique selling point. OK, so people don't want to support the ope…

> Note that the ASF does not pay for software development on any Apache projects; we rely on volunteers for all of our project coding work. The ASF focuses on providing the technical, legal, and community infrastructure for like-minded communities; we trust that healthy project communities will build their own software products.

https://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/

Re: Apache PLC4X announcing end of community support due to missing funding

#80

Post by rbanffy »

charcircuit wrote: post #77
glogla wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. Or maybe you are just helping the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Whether proprietary software is a force for good or just another mechanism of exploitation is a matter of opinion, and the GP might not share yours.

As a child starting from $0 I built up almost all of the money I have now doing contract work by making closed source software using open source software. Being able to quickly make things without even having to spend any money is great for someone with no money. It didn't make me poorer as someone with $0, it made me much richer. I know my software was a positive to the lives of many people even if it is closed sour…

If you are making money using open source software, it's always nice to support the creators of the software you use.
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