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Monumental Record: the lives of the workers building the Great Pyramid of Giza

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Re: Monumental Record: the lives of the workers building the Great Pyramid of Giza

#81
post #67
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of what you're describing happened after the Industrial Revolution, and most in the last 20 years. Yet the cutoff between Ancient Times and "our era" (?) happened 2000+ years ago, for some reason. Also, we don't fly "like birds". We are flown, crammed into metal tubes that are more similar to ancient galleries carved in mountains, mentioned in the OP, than to any bird. Edit: As a matter of fact I don't understand…

Even if your genes were the same, would you be the same person if you had grown up never seeing an alphabet, never driving a car, two of your siblings dying in childhood, and never hearing of a government (like most of the world in Merer's time) or at least of a democracy (like Merer's workers)?

This would be the case if I was born in the countryside around Paris in 1400 or almost anywhere in the world around the same time.

As recently as 1840 still, France had a king (as did much of Europe), there were of course no cars, phones, etc., and over 60% of the French population could not sign their name.

Again, everything you are talking about in your original response relates to the very recent past, and that wasn't my point. I would agree the world changed beyond recognition in the last 50 years (although I would disagree it had much effect on us as a species).

But my original point was that the separation of history in "antiquity" and "our era" is arbitrary, and that we can relate to people from 4,500 years ago as well as our great great grand parents -- and perhaps more.

Re: Monumental Record: the lives of the workers building the Great Pyramid of Giza

#82
post #81
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if your genes were the same, would you be the same person if you had grown up never seeing an alphabet, never driving a car, two of your siblings dying in childhood, and never hearing of a government (like most of the world in Merer's time) or at least of a democracy (like Merer's workers)?

This would be the case if I was born in the countryside around Paris in 1400 or almost anywhere in the world around the same time. As recently as 1840 still, France had a king (as did much of Europe), there were of course no cars, phones, etc., and over 60% of the French population could not sign their name. Again, everything you are talking about in your original response relates to the very recent past, and that wa…

I see! I think you're right that change has been very fast recently, very much faster than anything innate about us can change, and of course that post-Renaissance Europe was in many ways very similar to Classical Antiquity. That's why it was called the "Renaissance", after all.

But there was a fairly sharp break between Late Antiquity and the Dark Ages, which I don't think is really arbitrary, except in the sense that it was only a local phenomenon and so only appears if your focus was Europe. It wasn't as big a change as the last century or two has been, but it was a big change. The progression of the Middle Ages was much more gradual, but it too eventually produced enormous changes, and certainly the Reformation and the consequent introduction of the Westphalian form of state were enormously consquential.

My great-great-grandparents were probably born around 1860, mostly in the US. So not only had they heard of governments, they knew about democracy and literacy, though some of them probably weren't themselves literate. They traveled and shipped goods by railroad, which was of course made of metal smelted from stones. They bought and sold things with coins and even paper money (though not fiat money). Some of them probably drove cars, though I've only heard definite stories of their children, my great-grandparents, doing so. Some of them made phone calls. Glass was mass-produced in their lifetimes, though greenhouses were still only for the rich, and steel-framed skyscrapers were built. They knew many illnesses were caused by "germs". Hot-air balloons were a century before their births; some of them may have lived to see not only heavier-than-air flight but also the Great War. I don't know if any of them ever underwent anesthesia, but it became widespread for surgery in their lifetimes.

So, I don't know that it's true that I can relate to Merer as well as to my great-great-grandparents. Merer didn't have iron, coinage, flight, germ theory, anesthesia, mass production, and so on. He probably didn't know the Earth moved or that the stars were suns. He might not have known the Earth was round. Even the Polynesians hadn't yet learned to navigate over open ocean. He didn't have wheeled vehicles; chariots would be introduced centuries later by the Hyksos.

Re: Monumental Record: the lives of the workers building the Great Pyramid of Giza

#83
post #73
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically everything is amazing and nobody is happy

Perhaps happiness is not produced by amazement alone.

Perhaps, but there is one thing that I'm sure of, that it is not produced by complaining either.

Re: Monumental Record: the lives of the workers building the Great Pyramid of Giza

#84
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some great recent counterexamples to this. Here are two: when Steve Jobs took the helm of Apple in the early 2000s, and Elon Musk with reusable rockets and rebooting space in general. We seem wired to rally around leaders to get things done. Most people seem to wait around to be told what to do. This makes modern people very uncomfortable (for some very rational reasons) to the point that we engage in denia…

But for the most part CEOs and presidents are replaced regularly with very little effect on the stability of very large and powerful organizations. A handful of debatable counterexamples don't change that it's the majority and the norm. Of course stability and efficiency are much more transparent than disruption.

You're right in that really effective innovative leaders are rare.

Still... I am not familiar with many examples of cases where the leader was removed and not replaced and things didn't fall apart.

I would like to see more experimentation in this area though. We don't experiment nearly enough with social structures.

Re: Monumental Record: the lives of the workers building the Great Pyramid of Giza

#85
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for the most part CEOs and presidents are replaced regularly with very little effect on the stability of very large and powerful organizations. A handful of debatable counterexamples don't change that it's the majority and the norm. Of course stability and efficiency are much more transparent than disruption.

You're right in that really effective innovative leaders are rare. Still... I am not familiar with many examples of cases where the leader was removed and not replaced and things didn't fall apart. I would like to see more experimentation in this area though. We don't experiment nearly enough with social structures.

Yeah that's beyond my claims though. I'm only saying that they're totally fungible and things getting done don't depend that much on a specific individual.

Mmm as far as experimentation, the closest I can think of on a large scale (besides anarchist groups which never had leaders) is that in Europe when a government can't be formed, they can operate without any official leadership even though there's a caretaker government (usually the previous one, who don't have a mandate anymore) but that's kind of formal. Big cooperatives usually elect leaders, so they still have them even though they're elected and can be recalled.

Re: Monumental Record: the lives of the workers building the Great Pyramid of Giza

#86
post #8

The nobleman Ankhhaf, mentioned in these texts and described the article as the ostensible project manager of the pyramid at Giza, was the subject of a truly remarkable bust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankhhaf_(sculpture)

Amazing. The fact that this survived is awesome.

Another example, only very slightly later, is this:

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=14910

It's somewhat rare to find such realistic depictions in ancient art and I find any such works extremely arresting.

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