Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

staceyoniot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 235 posts

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#151

Post by funklute »

MrYellowP wrote: post #93
jagger27 wrote: post #40

I'm surprised that there's not a single comment here about 802.11ay which is also 60GHz. Each channel on that standard can do something like 40Gbps, which is nuts. From Wikipedia[0]: > The link-rate per stream is 44 Gbit/s, with four streams this goes up to 176 Gbit/s. Yes, it can't penetrate walls, but is huge for point to point communication. Think VR headset bandwidth, file transfers between devices, wireless back…

Quoted post unavailable.

> What an absolutely ridiculously ignorant statement to make.

Why is that an ignorant statement? It's comparing to what one might consider the "gold standard" of spying, so it seems quite a relevant thing to consider if one is after an objective estimate of how much worse wifi sensing might be...

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#152

Post by err »

tucosan wrote: post #140
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When analysing FUD always use the ELMER acronym E - Expectations L - Lifetime M - Motivation E - Environment R - Reward :-)

Can you elaborate? What is this?

I interpreted it as a joke. Elmer Fudd is a cartoon character.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#153

Post by oblio »

MrYellowP wrote: post #91
oblio wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be as negative. Frequently we create the tool in order to kill with it. After that we also use to tool to create. We're equally capable of good and evil and yes, we are frequently good, too.

It's not negative , it's true .

It can be both at the same time.

If you look at my comment, you can construe it as even being more negative and cynical, since I'm saying that instead of creating a tool and finding ways to kill with it, we're frequently building tools just to kill with them, and only later we find ways to use them for something non-lethal.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#154

Post by Ginden »

barbazoo wrote: post #5

The only real practical example is fall detection, what's the real purpose of this?

> The only real practical example is fall detection, what's the real purpose of this?

I can think of few real world applications. Eg. I have autism and air filter. Air filter working on full power is very uncomfortable for me, but with position sensing, it can be configured to run more often when I'm not in room. Motion sensing isn't exactly a solution, because I can be very still.

Automated light management is sensible too. It can also be used to automatically turn off lights if I fall asleep.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#155

Post by Ginden »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #126
transpute wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an exclusive/monopoly ISP took that approach, the modem could be surrounded by copper mesh which allows air circulation for cooling, but impedes RF.

And if everyone in the world setup TOR gateways and used TOR for everything then the survailiance and ad instry would collapse overnight. Back in the real world it would be frightingly effective.

Buying copper mesh from shop is far more accessible to average user than setting up TOR relay.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#156

Post by MisterTea »

tucosan wrote: post #140
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When analysing FUD always use the ELMER acronym E - Expectations L - Lifetime M - Motivation E - Environment R - Reward :-)

Can you elaborate? What is this?

Elmer Fud is a character from the Warmer Brothers Bugs Bunny animated series of children's cartoons and used as a mnemonic device. I assume the ELMER acronym is some set of metrics used to judge the validity of a claim to determine if it is FUD or not.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#157

Post by transpute »

Ginden wrote: post #148
justaj wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With cameras and motion sensors you more or less know how they'll be used and as a user you can choose to disable them (or at the very least block them if you can't disable them). With this technology, it will be integrated into your router (and clients?), so turning those off will mean to turn off WiFi altogether. Added to that, I'll bet that most people wouldn't even begin to imagine that WiFi could be used for sen…

> With this technology, it will be integrated into your router (and clients?), so turning those off will mean to turn off WiFi altogether. It's rather unreasonable to think that you won't be able to turn off band on router. Especially given fact that 60Ghz is heavily shielded by _doors_, so any usable router would require fallback 2.4/5/6 Ghz connectivity.

802.11bf Wi-Fi 7 Sensing works with all frequencies, 2.4 and up.

Even if Neighbor 2 turns off their router, Neighbor 1 could passively use the radio waves from Neighbor 3's router to surveil reflections from Neighbor 2, including keyboard typing, heartrate/breathing, location and physical activity.

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27123493

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#158

Post by everdrive »

JohnWhigham wrote: post #144
giantg2 wrote: post #2

I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting old. It seems this, like a lot of new tech these days, will end up offering little benefit while providing new malicious capabilities.

It's very scary shit. We could soon have no privacy at all in our own homes because of other people's WiFi networks. If the output is strong enough, all you have to do is connect to/crack someone's WiFi and use it to get a layout of all their neighbor's places.

This is a great example of why people don’t have privacy. Ethernet cables exist, and wholly forgo these problems. But, they are less convenient. Consumers complain a lot about privacy, but do little to really demand it. Of course manufacturers deserve much of the blame here for actually implementing these things, but it doesn’t seem as if consumers are trying to steer them in the right direction at all.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#159

Post by bluGill »

zeepzeep wrote: post #110
jagger27 wrote: post #40

I'm surprised that there's not a single comment here about 802.11ay which is also 60GHz. Each channel on that standard can do something like 40Gbps, which is nuts. From Wikipedia[0]: > The link-rate per stream is 44 Gbit/s, with four streams this goes up to 176 Gbit/s. Yes, it can't penetrate walls, but is huge for point to point communication. Think VR headset bandwidth, file transfers between devices, wireless back…

> It's not just for spying on your cat. Can we stop downplaying privacy issues please?

Sure, can privacy advocates stop down playing what we lose because we value privacy though?

There needs to be a balance, location information will be very useful for a lot of things, but only if we have it fully implemented. I want things to sense when I fall and call for help for me. (If I was at a big risk I'd have a button, but for the average young person the risk is non-zero but very small). I want my home automation stuff to figure out where they are and configure themselves. I want my routers to suggest that I'd get better coverage by moving it.

Yes there is privacy concerns and they need to be addressed, but don't lose the good with it.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#160

Post by bluGill »

RF_Savage wrote: post #142
MrYellowP wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

But do those cameras and lightbulbs come with a industry standard specification for occupancy sensing. Occupancy sensing and other surveilence have no place in a wireless communications specification.

That isn't needed, anyone who cares to can figure that part out. Cameras are cheap enough to put them up and leave them, and you can figure occupancy in many ways. Breaking into your house to place hidden cameras would not be hard - I don't know anything about where you live or your house, but I can confidently say I could get in if I wanted to. (lock picks are not hard to get, and it only takes a few days of observation to figure out when you leave)
Post reply on HN