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Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

reuters.com

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Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#101

Post by 0x_rs »

323 wrote: post #68

Not just Germany, a lot of very respectable publications are worried about Telegram: > White supremacists openly organize racist violence on Telegram, report finds https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/26/tech/white-supremacists-t... > Are Private Messaging Apps the Next Misinformation Hot Spot? Telegram and Signal, the encrypted services that keep conversations confidential, are increasingly popular. Our tech columnists d…

But none of the links you provided make an argument against Telegram itself, and you wouldn't find one anywhere. Encryption is free, and so is the ability to use any platform or communication method. It's pointless to argue against "lax content moderation", or "trendy radicalization platform of the month".. but I would expect no less from a website such as Vox. Perhaps those complaining currently about it in Germany may consider spending their time more wisely tackling the societal issues that cause such phenomena?

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#102

Post by EGreg »

bijant wrote: post #60
YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

say what you want there are stickers all over Hamburg asking you to join telegram channels if you need drugs, if you are racist or a so called "querdenker". It may not be the main use of telegram but if you are a member of the public only seeing these kind of stickers everywhere would make me worry as well.

It's not like you need Telegram to buy Drugs in Hamburg. There are places like the U-Bahn Sternschanze or the Hafentreppe where Dealers have been continuously offering light and hard drugs for over a decade with an uptime that puts FAANG SLAs to shame. They occasionally get raided whenever the police wants to have their pictures in the local papers but it's not like there is anything you could get via Telegram that y…

I have seen this argument over and over but there is a power law and authorities just need to cut off the head off the probability distribution. Centralized messengers are no hydra.

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#103

Post by lima »

iqanq wrote: post #67
lampe3 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So its okay for people to leak addresses of politicians and call on other to kill them? They match your interests and they can organize. Oh wait I know you yourself know nothing about this situation. Oh wait you yourself never got death threats to your personal mail and home? Oh wait its not like the article is saying that closing it would be the last resort...

That argument is not honest. There already are laws against doxing and threats. We don't need to censor a whole platform because of that. Especially if it's done just so we can conveniently muzzle groups that just want to protest against masks, vaccines, or lockdowns.

But that's the point - Telegram refuses to honor these laws. There are court rulings demanding Telegram to remove content, which Telegram ignores, hence the threats of banning the entire platform.

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#104

Post by lampe3 »

iqanq wrote: post #67
lampe3 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So its okay for people to leak addresses of politicians and call on other to kill them? They match your interests and they can organize. Oh wait I know you yourself know nothing about this situation. Oh wait you yourself never got death threats to your personal mail and home? Oh wait its not like the article is saying that closing it would be the last resort...

That argument is not honest. There already are laws against doxing and threats. We don't need to censor a whole platform because of that. Especially if it's done just so we can conveniently muzzle groups that just want to protest against masks, vaccines, or lockdowns.

Okay you have clearly no clue what you are talking about.

Its not about "querdenker" putting there bullshit on and promoting there products.

It's about the far right and people are getting more aggressive every day and writing death threats and leaking addresses and a lot of nasty shit.

It's not about selling your homeopathic sugar pills. It's not about stupid people spreading fake news. It's about people calling other people to kill other people.

If you dont recognize this then your a

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#105

Post by b3orn »

Aerroon wrote: post #13
uniqueuid wrote: post #5

This will be interesting. Some background for the discussion: - Germany has a different take on freedom of speech from the US. There are things that you cannot say (holocaust denial, inciting racial violence). We can argue about this, but it's deeply ingrained in the legal system and unrealistic to change - Germany has a special law regulating responsibilities and content moderation in social media (NetzDG, think sec…

Sadly, cutting out Germany means that you'd eventually have to cut out the entire EU. If you just block Germany they're going to push on the EU to take up this fight for them. It'll all be in the name of "stopping online abuse" or something like that. Germany, in general, seems to be a very poor country to do digital business compared to most other places. This is the same country that required (requires?) streamers…

It's the other way around, if it's not going through local legislation it gets pushed to the EU level. Doing digital business doesn't seem to be that hard considering that in the end everyone still tries to get german customers/subscribers. And the ruling on broadcasting licenses for streamers was relaxed a lot, it's required if you had more than 20 000 viewers on average over the last 6 months, only very few german streamers are affected by that.

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#106

Post by dntRa »

This should remind people that the SPD ("Social" Democrats) is an authoritarian party that is nicknamed "the traitor party" for repeatedly backstabbing its voters.

Schroeder has destroyed the welfare state, increased reliance on Russia's natural gas and got a job at Gazprom after he retired from politics.

I'm sure that Putin will be very glad to shut down Telegram as well.

Same as in the U.S., liberals in Germany are very happy to spread COVID-19 misinformation:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/08/sotomayor...

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#107

Post by captainmuon »

thathndude wrote: post #74
odiroot wrote: post #9

The collective panic and Luddism about Telegram in Germany is really scary. I watch Tagesschau (probably most respected news show) every evening. Any time Telegram is mentioned it's always being attacked, as if it's only purpose was to enable crime and terrorism.

What scary about this idea to me, is that it opens the door to false flag operations. A bad actor that wants to hobble free speech and communication could flood a system with illegal, antisemitic speech, and then turn around and use that speech that they are spreading as a justification to have the communication platform taken down.

You don't even need false flag operations. Real COVID-deniers and Nazis are damn convenient if you want to ban telegram. They are also convenient if you want to prevent more strict COVID measures in order to "save the economy". Or to get everybody infected in a semi-controlled manner so you can "return back to normal". Or if you want to close the borders and restrict immigration.

A lot of these people who think they are very edgy, critical and radical are just being played by the establishment.

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#108

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

thathndude wrote: post #74
odiroot wrote: post #9

The collective panic and Luddism about Telegram in Germany is really scary. I watch Tagesschau (probably most respected news show) every evening. Any time Telegram is mentioned it's always being attacked, as if it's only purpose was to enable crime and terrorism.

What scary about this idea to me, is that it opens the door to false flag operations. A bad actor that wants to hobble free speech and communication could flood a system with illegal, antisemitic speech, and then turn around and use that speech that they are spreading as a justification to have the communication platform taken down.

>What scary about this idea to me, is that it opens the door to false flag operations.

Yeah, the German police/state is not new to this. There are always reports that the German police in plain clothes infiltrate protest groups and start throwing rocks at the riot police in uniforms, in order to justify police intervention by force to break up the protest.

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#109

Post by colinjoy »

progx wrote: post #21

Quoted post unavailable.

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

Just because you label a protest march as "spontaneously going for a walk", it is still a protest march, especially if you organise it (here: via Telegram groups).

The German constitution (art. 8) generally grants the right to assemble peacefully and without weapons without requiring an explicit permit. However, if you plan to do it outdoors in public space, you need to declare it to the local authorities (with the intent to ensure safety for both the protesters and the general public). Spontaneous gatherings are exempt from this, BUT, if you organise a "spontaneous walk" days ahead via Telegram, arguably it is not very spontaneous anymore.

A declared demonstration can be approved with additional requirements (e.g. limiting movement to predefined areas) or even prohibited, provided there are grounds that it cannot be conducted safely. From what I can see, the reason that many anti-covid protests fall victim to this, is that the audience has demonstrated a tendency to break regulations that are in place to ensure public health and safety (e.g. mask mandate and distancing).

If you don't like the regulations, you can protest against them. If you break the regulations however, you cannot.

Re: Germany doesn't rule out closing Telegram – interior minister

#110

Post by lampe3 »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #76
lampe3 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So its okay for people to leak addresses of politicians and call on other to kill them? They match your interests and they can organize. Oh wait I know you yourself know nothing about this situation. Oh wait you yourself never got death threats to your personal mail and home? Oh wait its not like the article is saying that closing it would be the last resort...

How will banning Telegram limit these harmful activities? Won't bad actors just switch to a different communication channel?

It is about Telegram ignoring German Law and not answering any letters which by EU Law they have to do.
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