Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt • Hacker News Board

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#631

Post by thathndude » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:02 PM UTC

gurkendoktor wrote: post #489

thathndude wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point. But the long term damage doesn’t justify the lie. That’s a race to the bottom. And what happens when the scientist and politician is in a hybrid role, like Fauci? Folks don’t trust Fauci because credibility, in general, has been harmed. Q conspiracy theorists thrive in a world of distrust. Chronic distrust of politicians is too high a price to pay to justify the use of the occasional manipulation.

Not only distrust of politicians. I'd say the mainstream media have suffered from a similar loss of trust over the last years because most outlets simply repeat official guidance from the WHO or national agencies.

100%. And for me personally, I think the most powerful discrediting tool is juxtaposition of their changing positions.

It’s very common to see “super cuts“ of the media pulling a complete 180 on positions. Those are super compelling to the public, who are generally in alignment in hating hypocrisy.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#632

Post by frockington1 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

zpeti wrote: post #277

tunesmith wrote: post #276

I feel like it was impossible to really deal with this debate responsibly, what with the current state of society and social media where everyone has figured out how to weaponize false information, before we as a society have figured out how to really deal with it. Even now it seems like everyone wants to elide the massive differences between "accidental lab leak" and "deliberate lab leak". Even now the common phrase…

> I feel like it was impossible to really deal with this debate responsibly, what with the current state of society and social media where everyone has figured out how to weaponize false information So, the solution to this is lying. Right. That will make everything better. Oh and also make fact checkers tell people the truth is false information. FACT checkers. Yes. That will increase trust. Sure.

Fact checkers have determined this statement to be mostly false. While fact checkers have been proven over and over to be incorrect, we find the sarcastic tone of this post to be dangerous and have therefor decided the entire thing is false

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#633

Post by prof-dr-ir » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:04 PM UTC

causi wrote: post #415

prof-dr-ir wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you're incorrect? The lab leak theory is still widely considered to be an unlikely possibility.

There is a vast difference between responding to someone by saying it's unlikely and responding to someone by calling them a Republican/racist/Nazi, which is how several of my questions about the origins of Covid-19 with regards to its seemingly unique and varied symptoms were responded to during the first year of the pandemic.

Sure. I am sorry to hear you have been insulted - my comment is not to be interpreted as a justification of rude online behavior.

By the way, what do you think of the tone of the other reply to my comment? (Did you perhaps see the now-deleted curse word at the end?)

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#634

Post by nswest23 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:06 PM UTC

cocoggu wrote: post #581

raxxorrax wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you would make the same criticism against articles that denied it could have had a lab origin? At some point people don't believe you anymore.

I don't have a strong opinion about what happened, it may or may not be a lab leak. It's still ongoing and I feel it will be a very long and sterile debate with few scientific facts to prove anything. Granted, if the title of the article was "Scientists believed that Covid had natural origins...", this article wouldn't attract my attention as much, because I already believe that to be the popular opinion. But if, in…

The point is that scientists felt compelled to hide their views for one hypothesis.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#635

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:07 PM UTC

throw8932894 wrote: post #585

scotty79 wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's skip omicron for now. While the original strain was evolving in patient zero it was acquirng various random mutations. The ones that were not beneficial for infecting human cells and thriving in humans didn't survive. Threre were few possibilities. I don't think it could evolve some mutation that would trigger immune system of that person into overdrive causing it to kill all variants of the virus. Very unlikel…

> Let's skip omicron for now. Are you talking about omicron now or original Wuhan virus? Omicron stays mainly in upper respiratory parts. It does not go deep into lungs and body as other variants. That makes it less lethal, not because it is somehow milder. Normal cold is also quite lethal, once it spreads through body, but it never gets a chance. I am happy to accept theory it stayed in single host for several month…

> This is not a religion, there is no "believe".

Religions are not the only things people believe in. Some people believe in lab leak exactly the same way some believe in flat earth. With fierce conviction despite complete lack of evidence with just surface level clues.

> Lab leak (or artificial synthesis) is just a theory that explains origin of virus very well.

It's a hypothesis. Most likely unfalsifiable because I have no idea what could prove it wrong. It doesn't explain a single thing about coronavirus and has no predictive power.

> Dismissing it without investigation would be unscientific.

What is posited without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

You are of course free to search for evidence even though it was dismissed. And come back if you find any.

Some people looked for evidence over last two year and so far they haven't found anything new or interesting.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#636

Post by chimprich » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:07 PM UTC

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #604

chimprich wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not spreading misinformation. Please don't throw accusations around. Previous Surgeon General Jerome Adams is not the same person as Fauci. I'm not in the USA, but looks like your surgeon general in Feb 2020 was not an ideal choice for the post. He sounds like a political Trump appointee. Even so, the full tweet read: "Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from…

You can't even keep your own arguments straight. In grandparent post you stated "There seemed to be genuine uncertainty early on in the pandemic about whether masks would be helpful". In this post you are stating "mask use was partly being discouraged to avoid pressure on sourcing masks for medical professionals". So which is it? Were they recommending against mask use because masks are not helpful, or were they reco…

> Were they recommending against mask use because masks are not helpful, or were they recommending against mask use because masks are so helpful that we actually need to conserve them for medical professionals?

Masks are clearly going to be more effective when used by trained personnel in a clinical setting. For example, removing masks using gloves and disinfecting hands before touching faces. There isn't necessarily a contradiction here in thinking masks could be effective for medical personnel but not the public. Although, as I have already said, I think they made a mistake.

> If you're going to lie

If you don't have the wit or politeness to enter a discussion without throwing insults around please find another forum to argue on.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#637

Post by tristor » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:07 PM UTC

cortic wrote: post #398

enriquto wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once government officials and scientists gaslight us about what they think they should, how does one know they wouldn't for anything at all they decide to? For me it was the masks. The masks were my tipping point. At some point at the beginning of the pandemic they said that the disease was totally not airborne and that masks were useless. I remember vividly president Macron (a person that I respected before that)…

Happened in the UK as well, Boris (and to be fair the WHO) told us masks were counter productive. That they might get you to stand closer to people and touch your face more, increasing your chances of getting Covid.. All presumably to save a mask shortage; But we know, and they should have known, that the public doesn't buy the same kind of masks that our NHS buys and there never was going to be any shortage. This en…

> This encouraged examples like; people walking up to you in the supermarket explaining why you should take your mask off.

I attended FOSDEM in Brussels in 2020 right at the beginning of February, after COVID was identified, but before the big push of lockdowns in March. I had to transit through Atlanta to get to EU, and had a long layover so left the airport to visit a friend. While I was in the airport and flying, I wore a P100 rated half-mask respirator with cartridge filters the entire time. Recently the TSA and airlines had been experimenting (and now fully implemented) facial recognition for identity verification in US airports rather than handing the TSA your ID. It's supposed to be optional, but I got delayed 20 minutes in an otherwise empty line re-entering Atlanta because the TSA agent on duty wanted to argue with me to take my mask off and how masks were ineffective, and that's what the doctors/CDC (based in Atlanta) said, and how arrogant I was that I thought I knew more than the CDC. I kept my mask on. I didn't get COVID, and in fact still haven't had it at this point (although I'll likely get Omicron) by following common sense precautions and being vaccinated.

The telling people not to wear masks or buy masks was one of the biggest things for me that immediately let me know that the public was being lied to and manipulated. I've made a point of keeping up on the latest research and sharing what I know with family and friends directly, including preparatory advice. I already had a "pandemic prep kit" in my prep supplies, which had plenty of respirators, and I shared them with family and friends early on when they were hard to get. To me, it's utterly obscene how often even /basic/ easily verifiable facts were lied about to the public, masks especially.

Now that this has been politicized as an issue in the US, it's just made it harder. Here I am knowing the government lied consistently throughout the pandemic to everyone and that many of the "precautions" were nonsense, but the entire time advocating masks and vaccines... nobody on any political aisle likes truthful information since their selection of "truth" cannot match with reality.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#638

Post by deviantbit » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:08 PM UTC

In America, the president placed tariffs and sanctions on China. The opposing political party then tried to remove him from office twice.

There was an erroneous political hit job made by the losing candidate, spreading misinformation about the president's ties to Russia.

Then a virus appears, just blocks from a Research Institute that researches the very type of virus that is now in the wild.

Our leaders initially told us masks were not necessary, and that closing the borders would be bad for combating the virus.

Police in Australia are beating people in parks for not wearing masks with clubs. Our leaders fired the very people we need to operate our supply chain for not being vaccinated.

Call it conspiracy, but you don't read novels like this.

“Tis strange,-but true; for truth is always strange; Stranger than fiction: if it could be told, How much would novels gain by the exchange! How differently the world would men behold!” -Lord Byron

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#639

Post by tim333 » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:10 PM UTC

larryflint wrote: post #254

vasco wrote: post #241

You know this effect, when you've been reading the news for years, and finally your favorite source has a story about something you studied or worked on, and you realize how low quality or outright wrong it is? The spell is broken and you realize how little they know about anything they write. Once government officials and scientists gaslight us about what they think they should, how does one know they wouldn't for a…

Yep. I'm a case in point. At the beginning of this thing i went along with the mainstream narrative like a good sheeple. Now that i've watched how a narrative can go from 'your a crazy person to believe there COULD have been a lab leak' to 'yahhh it was probably a lab leak the whole time'...my faith has probably been permenantly destroyed in main-stream sources of information. Which sucks because idealy i just want t…

I've kind of switched from my main source of info being mainstream media to it being following individuals, experts and other on twitter. Advantages:

- As individuals you kind of know what they know what their biases are

- You can follow all sides of the debates

- It's quicker by about 12 hours than the newspapers

You get to see the biases in the news when it breaks on twitter first and then you get the editorialised dumbed down version written up by journalists a few hours after. Obviously you have to be a bit selective about who you follow.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#640

Post by tristor » Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 1:11 PM UTC

chimprich wrote: post #435

cortic wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happened in the UK as well, Boris (and to be fair the WHO) told us masks were counter productive. That they might get you to stand closer to people and touch your face more, increasing your chances of getting Covid.. All presumably to save a mask shortage; But we know, and they should have known, that the public doesn't buy the same kind of masks that our NHS buys and there never was going to be any shortage. This en…

> All presumably to save a mask shortage I don't think so. There seemed to be genuine uncertainty early on in the pandemic about whether masks would be helpful. We didn't know if the virus was airborne and there was a question about whether the masks would actually be helpful. For example, the masks could have had very low benefit but encouraged people to touch their face more. Whitty in March 2020: "In terms of wear…

> I don't think so. There seemed to be genuine uncertainty early on in the pandemic about whether masks would be helpful.

Just like anything, reality is a bit more complicated. I don't think there was any genuine uncertainty about whether masks were helpful or effective, as we already knew that at minimum COVID-19 was droplet spread due to it being so similar to SARS. The issue was whether or not the public could correctly and effectively use masks, because wearing them properly is important as improper wear can actually /increase/ exposure to capture viral particles on the mask material.

But rather than just be honest and tell people the truth, they chose to spread simple lies.