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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#281

Post by larryflint »

underdeserver wrote: post #270
vasco wrote: post #241

You know this effect, when you've been reading the news for years, and finally your favorite source has a story about something you studied or worked on, and you realize how low quality or outright wrong it is? The spell is broken and you realize how little they know about anything they write. Once government officials and scientists gaslight us about what they think they should, how does one know they wouldn't for a…

Government officials are not one homogenous group, and neither are scientists. Please remember that most people who belong to one of those groups truly want to get to truth and improve our knowledge and lives.

No post body was provided.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#282

Post by kennywinker »

beebmam wrote: post #266

So, did it leak from a Chinese lab? If so, why isn't China being held economically and ethically liable? Why do they continue stonewalling any investigation and suffer zero consequences?

On one hand, China hasn’t faced ethical or economic consequences for literal concentration camps so why would this be different? On the other hand - would you really seek to punish an entire nation for the (supposed) actions of a few careless scientists?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#283

Post by pmlnr »

beebmam wrote: post #266

So, did it leak from a Chinese lab? If so, why isn't China being held economically and ethically liable? Why do they continue stonewalling any investigation and suffer zero consequences?

Because mistakes happen. The correct course of action would be to help them ensure it doesn't heppen again, with procedures, audits, etc.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#284

Post by rixed »

suifbwish wrote: post #107
systemvoltage wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article shouldn’t have quote this person in the first place - there are plenty of serious investigations into the lab leak theory from reputable virologists. I recommend Alina Chan’s new book: Viral. This clarification also masquerades as a clarification of something important. This person quoted by the tabloid is irrelevant here. In fact this article does more damage to the credibility of lab theory than otherwi…

Facts are facts. The fact is in 2019 there were 39,397 wet markets in China. How many virology labs were there in China handling Corona-viruses? TWO. One of which was TWO BLOCKS from where the wet market from where the original Covid-19 virus which started the pandemic has been traced to. One might be forgiven for being curious as to the likelihood of the virus emerging from this particular wet market as opposed to a…

This line of reasoning forget a very important information: research labs are not built at random. This lab studying coronavirusses was built there precisely because this is a place where new coronavirusses have appeared in the past.

Will add a source later when not on mobile.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#285

Post by [deleted] »

HumanReadable wrote: post #269
ayngg wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trust the science" hasn't made people more rational, it has made "science" more dogmatic. I wonder what governments and the media will latch onto once they have eroded the trust in science, because there aren't many other trustworthy institutions left.

I agree, but I still consider it a step up to what we had before. There's always been institutions whom people are told to trust. For a thousand years it was the church. I think for most people to trust credentialed scientists from government institutions is a vast step up, even if they have sorely disappointed during this pandemic.

[deleted]

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#286

Post by larryflint »

HumanReadable wrote: post #269
ayngg wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trust the science" hasn't made people more rational, it has made "science" more dogmatic. I wonder what governments and the media will latch onto once they have eroded the trust in science, because there aren't many other trustworthy institutions left.

I agree, but I still consider it a step up to what we had before. There's always been institutions whom people are told to trust. For a thousand years it was the church. I think for most people to trust credentialed scientists from government institutions is a vast step up, even if they have sorely disappointed during this pandemic.

That's a humbling point. Thank you.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#287

Post by khazhoux »

Jon Stewart's take is brilliant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfejgwbDQ8&t=170s

> "The name of the disease is printed on the lab's business cards!!"

But the reason the Left in the US couldn't even consider Wuhan as the source, is because the Right (well, Trump himself) wanted to say that because it was "China's fault", that his Administration bore no responsibility for dealing with it.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#288

Post by seanmcdirmid »

zx85wes wrote: post #279
HumanReadable wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but I still consider it a step up to what we had before. There's always been institutions whom people are told to trust. For a thousand years it was the church. I think for most people to trust credentialed scientists from government institutions is a vast step up, even if they have sorely disappointed during this pandemic.

You mean the people who told us not to wear masks? I trust science, but that doesn't mean I trust every scientist.

If you really trusted science, you would trust that information and knowledge is dynamic and they don’t always have the right answer at the beginning, just an answer that gets changed over time as more knowledge pours in.

I’m guessing you prefer your scientists to be absolutely right at the beginning right?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#289

Post by zapdrive »

dehrmann wrote: post #199
partiallypro wrote: post #157

What really raises the most suspicion of the lab leak theory in my mind was how the Chinese government acted towards the rest of the scientific community...well before it was a theory at all. Not allowing foreign scientists in, destroying evidence, arresting journalists, etc. That just screams cover-up, even if there was none (in terms of a lab leak.) Then Western scientists that rely on grants with Chinese ties, etc…

It does feel like there hasn't been a proper airing of exactly what gain of function research has been going on (whether or not it led to this particular virus) and how governments have supported it. I suspect it's because, despite being a "hindsight is 2020" moment, a lot of people would be angry, and at a lot of public policy scientists involved in the response.

If they didn't know for sure back then, why did they actively deny the lab leak theories? Remember the Lancet letter [1]?

1. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#290

Post by paganel »

option wrote: post #192
rhcom2 wrote: post #12

Is there a way, outside full transparency from China in some "perestroika" type situation which seems highly unlikely, we will ever really know for sure?

We will know for sure after CCP falls, just like we learned many of USSR secrets after it fell (for example it’s anthrax leak in the 70ies)

At this point I'm not sure the CCP will fall anytime soon, they managed to implement capitalism even better than many Western European countries (they still lag the US in that respect, but catching fast). CCP will fall only if capitalism as we know it falls.
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