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The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

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Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#41

Post by pjbeam »

whatshisface wrote: post #36
GlenTheMachine wrote: post #9

Is it just me, or does this seems like a really, really bad idea? The privacy implications here seem… disturbing.

Technology can't be stopped by individual engineers refusing to invent it, it can only be stopped by everyone agreeing on the ways it shouldn't be used. So it was for arson (fire), homicide (every weapon since the rock), and obscene material (all communications technology), and so must it be for privacy and the various techniques of monitoring us.

Even then it isn't stopped; once something exists someone will eventually use it, and likely in way not intended by the designer.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#42

Post by deadmutex »

divbzero wrote: post #15

Some WiFi systems [1] [2] already offer sensing capabilities for home security. [1]: https://www.linksys.com/us/support-article?articleNum=317804 [2]: https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20171114005542/en/Nex... I agree with other comments that question the ratio of benefit vs. risk. But I’m an old fogey who feels similarly about other “smart” home devices.

> other comments that question the ratio of benefit vs. risk

I think it is important to note that different people will have different inputs into benefits and risk. E.g. a 24 year old male living alone probably doesn't have a use case for elderly fall detection, etc. But, a 75 year old woman living alone probably does.

Also, I am of the opinion that is possible to do this properly (i.e. securely and privacy preserving). Case in point: people carry microphones (in phones) that can record any audio with them... but they do it because they trust that their phone is secure and private.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#43

Post by saltminer »

freyr wrote: post #10
barbazoo wrote: post #5

The only real practical example is fall detection, what's the real purpose of this?

I worked briefly for a company working on WiFi sensing, and besides fall detection, nobody could give a compelling use case. When pressed to come up with a motivating vision, the big idea was lights turning on automatically when you enter a room. I guess? Like a lot of R&D, it seemed a solution in search of a problem.

> lights turning on automatically when you enter a room

Was this really it? Or did they have some use-case not currently covered by motion sensors?

I can see some potential use for security (cheap REX sensors can be easily tricked, allowing unauthorized access into secure areas). The fix is obvious (stop cheaping out on your REX sensors) but I can envision someone trying to bill wifi sensing as the hip new solution for REX systems.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#44

Post by zinekeller »

jagger27 wrote: post #40

I'm surprised that there's not a single comment here about 802.11ay which is also 60GHz. Each channel on that standard can do something like 40Gbps, which is nuts. From Wikipedia[0]: > The link-rate per stream is 44 Gbit/s, with four streams this goes up to 176 Gbit/s. Yes, it can't penetrate walls, but is huge for point to point communication. Think VR headset bandwidth, file transfers between devices, wireless back…

> You can "sense" with a lot more resolution if you use a camera and light bulb.

(Visible) Light has a frequency of around 400-790 THz, which explains why it has a inherently better resolution.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#45

Post by _trampeltier »

jagger27 wrote: post #40

I'm surprised that there's not a single comment here about 802.11ay which is also 60GHz. Each channel on that standard can do something like 40Gbps, which is nuts. From Wikipedia[0]: > The link-rate per stream is 44 Gbit/s, with four streams this goes up to 176 Gbit/s. Yes, it can't penetrate walls, but is huge for point to point communication. Think VR headset bandwidth, file transfers between devices, wireless back…

Yes and no. So you have to have a cable again to every room (for the AP), because the wifi signal can't go thru walls?

I hope then you can dissable the lower frequencys, because now you have 5 or more APs in your appartement.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#46

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

Haemm0r wrote: post #34
petarb wrote: post #27

I want my Wi-Fi to deliver me fast internet access, not track my position. Have a feeling this will be used for il-intent and monetized by future routers

+1 As many APs today are already cloud dependent I can totally see where all the sensed data will be stored and out of the owners control.

I’m skeptical there are customers really asking for this.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#47

Post by charcircuit »

petarb wrote: post #27

I want my Wi-Fi to deliver me fast internet access, not track my position. Have a feeling this will be used for il-intent and monetized by future routers

But tracking your position allows it to give you fast internet access.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#48

Post by charcircuit »

Haemm0r wrote: post #34
petarb wrote: post #27

I want my Wi-Fi to deliver me fast internet access, not track my position. Have a feeling this will be used for il-intent and monetized by future routers

+1 As many APs today are already cloud dependent I can totally see where all the sensed data will be stored and out of the owners control.

How would this be useful? Collecting the average distance away from an access point someone uses their phone or whatever?

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#50

Post by transpute »

(2021) privacy comments on Wi-Fi 7 standards work for 802.11bf, https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.14918.pdf

> it has been shown that SENS-based classifiers can infer privacy-critical information such as keyboard typing, gesture recognition and activity tracking ... since Wi-Fi signals can penetrate hard objects and can be used without the presence of light, end-users may not even realize they are being tracked ... individuals should be provided the opportunity to opt out of SENS services – in other words, to avoid being monitored and tracked by the Wi-Fi devices around them. This would require the widespread introduction of reliable SENS algorithm for human or animal identification.

Would this require a worldwide database of biometric signatures for each human that opts out?

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