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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#121

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

duxup wrote: post #105
bsder wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

> Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Assuming that is true. Are you asking what China would have done with the result of researching COVID? Same thing anyone does with research? Or are you asking what we do with the information as to why something bad happened? Same things / reasons we want to know why something bad happene…

Also if it did leak from that lab, who funded that work? And how can they be held liable?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#122

Post by dboreham »

suifbwish wrote: post #107
systemvoltage wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article shouldn’t have quote this person in the first place - there are plenty of serious investigations into the lab leak theory from reputable virologists. I recommend Alina Chan’s new book: Viral. This clarification also masquerades as a clarification of something important. This person quoted by the tabloid is irrelevant here. In fact this article does more damage to the credibility of lab theory than otherwi…

Facts are facts. The fact is in 2019 there were 39,397 wet markets in China. How many virology labs were there in China handling Corona-viruses? TWO. One of which was TWO BLOCKS from where the wet market from where the original Covid-19 virus which started the pandemic has been traced to. One might be forgiven for being curious as to the likelihood of the virus emerging from this particular wet market as opposed to a…

That's not how probability works. You'd need to wait for thousands of years and several pandemics to know if they are more or less likely to emerge next to a virology lab. And then you'd need to control for the fact that virology labs are better at detecting dangerous viruses than average humans. Like how the first confirmed cases in the US were in Davis --- because there's a specialist unit at UC Davis that was already treating cruise ship patients.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#123

Post by rhino369 »

bsder wrote: post #94
torstenvl wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you find that [a government] has lost, destroyed, or failed to preserve any evidence whose contents or quality are material to the issues in this case, then you may draw an inference unfavorable to the [government]." West Virg. Jury Inst. 5.03

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

Ban gain of function research because it killed 20 million people?

Your logic is like BP saying “hey it doesn’t matter how the oil spill started . . .”

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#124

Post by sudosysgen »

andreilys wrote: post #108
sudosysgen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem at all line they're claiming that lab escapes never happen. Just that this particular lab is known for being extremely safe, and that it's therefore unlikely it would have had a leak. For a leak of such a virus to happen from a BSL4 facility that routinely handles much more contagious viruses, you would need incompetence or funding issues, yes.

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy for a reason. Just because they are “leaders in the field of safety” doesn’t mean that a lab leak is impossible, just unlikely.

You can argue it's a logical fallacy, doesn't change I was responding to a strawman.

The argument isn't an argument from authority either, it's just that they are well known for using very safe procedures.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#126

Post by sudosysgen »

garbagetime wrote: post #120
sudosysgen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The source isn't Reddit, it's a published virologist, and he himself cites over a hundred academic sources. Reddit is the medium.

That a person cited sources should not be seen as a sign of the quality of the work. Nor should be the amount of citations the person makes. In some cases the lack of citations can be used to suggest a piece of writing should not be taken seriously. But never the other way around. It's extremely common for people to reach a conclusion, and only then to go looking for research. And, then, to be looking only for resear…

That doesn't change that I was correcting an incorrect statement. Someone said the source was Reddit, it isn't, it has multiple sources, none of which are Reddit.

As far as I'm concerned this is a complete non-sequitur.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#127

Post by bobwaycott »

torstenvl wrote: post #103
bsder wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

You seem very convinced of your position. But there's a whole world of options in between "unactionable" and "invade China."

Such as?

Assuming the best, the parent asked a bunch of questions (in an admittedly dismissive and argumentative way) to try and invite some kind of response that explains what China gets out of it, and what the world does next if we could somehow prove China created the original virus.

So … let’s assume China created it. Now what?

What’s the next step and response if it was an accident?

What’s the next step and response if it was intentional?

Edit: I’m asking because I’m genuinely curious about what the next step would be. I mean, it’d satisfy my curiosity and interest in knowing the cause and origin. But then I want to figure out what the world response should be.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#128

Post by fumar »

The connectedness of the earth's inhabitants including microscopic beings is in full effect and spotlighted by Covid. Regardless of where the Covid strain originated, we can't deny how closely linked every being on earth is. I ruminate on this known and cliche fact, but I struggle to pin point why. I know we are all connected and its obvious we share one planet. I know we all share distant relatives and descended from simpler earth-life eons ago. But living through the connectedness of Covid is both frightening and enlightening.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#129

Post by zeptonix »

bsder wrote: post #94
torstenvl wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you find that [a government] has lost, destroyed, or failed to preserve any evidence whose contents or quality are material to the issues in this case, then you may draw an inference unfavorable to the [government]." West Virg. Jury Inst. 5.03

Okay. China created it. Now what? I have yet to see anyone explain what they would do with the result that is somehow beneficial. Does knowing this help fight it? Does it help stop it? Does it help treat it? Does it help stop the spread? Let's say China even INTENTIONALLY did it. Then what? You gonna invade China? Exactly how are you gonna make someone like Apple pull out of China when they should already be doing th…

What a sadly modern philosophy... Sure, why should we learn anything from the past? Let's just adjust the past to be whatever's most convenient for today. If it's not convenient at this immediate moment right now, let's just ignore it ever happened. Those millions of people who died unnecessarily? "Boogeyman" "propaganda" for the "out group"?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#130

Post by sudosysgen »

andreilys wrote: post #110
sudosysgen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The source isn't Reddit, it's a published virologist, and he himself cites over a hundred academic sources. Reddit is the medium.

I am very confident that SARS-CoV-2 has no connection to the Wuhan Institute of Virology or any other laboratory. Not genetic engineering, not intentional evolution, not an accidental release. The most plausible scenario, by a landslide, is that SARS-CoV-2 jumped from a bat (or other species) into a human, in the wild. A year later and we are yet to see a zoonotic link, but of course it’s the “most plausible scenario…

SARS's zoonotic link was only established in 2017. You can't expect it to be find. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And it's going to be harder for this virus than SARS.

Right now, over a year later, reality is conforming exactly to what you would expect to happen starting from that hypothesis a year ago. So I don't even understand why you're mentioning it, it's not a logical argument.

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