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Is the madness ever going to end?

unixsheikh.com

341–350 of 629 posts

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's a net negative for the end user, which should have been the priority for everyone involved, and what you're describing sounds like a corruption of this system. So I wouldn't call it an engineering thing, it seems far more general than that.

It's not corruption. I'm just mad that my Qt skills are worthless now. It's hard detaching my ego as a programmer from the economics of programming.

I'm sure COBOL programmers thought the same. Some day all the existing QT programs will need people to convert them to something else. Keep those skills sharp.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#342

The author is fighting a strawman. Rather than engage with the specific problems these solutions were built to solve they dismissively regard them as just flavor of the week trends purely for the sake of chasing newness. This is true of the entire post, but I'll tackle just one since it's emblematic of my issues with all the rest: The argument for Electron and React Native isn't "it's modern", it's "it's much cheaper…

A bit of a digression, but iMessages is supposed to be a native app and it sucks ass on macOS. buggy, slow to load previous messages, and have to force quite from time to time.

From my experience, many native apps suck. But a lot of them are good. Same goes for electron apps.

Also, native app development process is way worse than solutions like electron and react native in terms of feedback loop and DX. Ofc they have downsides as well since they're abstraction layers.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's what's offensive to the purist engineer mind. These aren't engineering decisions, they're business decisions (or maybe the closest thing you could call them would be "financial engineering" decisions). The best thing, by pure engineering criteria, is not what gets built. The best thing for the business is what gets built. In that context it's a complaint as old as the hills. ...and not specific to comp…

> These aren't engineering decisions, they're business decisions All engineering (including "real" ones like civil or mechanical) is about fitting your requirements within budgets. When one's building a skyscraper, you try to build it in a way that minimizes the cost while satisfying all requirements (it shouldn't fall down given such and such conditions, etc.) Engineering is largely the art of solving problems that…

Feels like everyone is very disinterested in the cost to the user with most "modern ways" of doing things. Many webpages use far too much resource to just communicate text. Web adverts are especially awful for this. I could browse the web with dialup and a machine a thousandth as powerful as my phone. So as a consumer why do I need to "upgrade" what was the added value above Google scale is delivering computationally intense adverts I then waste cycles blocking?

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#345

The author is fighting a strawman. Rather than engage with the specific problems these solutions were built to solve they dismissively regard them as just flavor of the week trends purely for the sake of chasing newness. This is true of the entire post, but I'll tackle just one since it's emblematic of my issues with all the rest: The argument for Electron and React Native isn't "it's modern", it's "it's much cheaper…

I’m very critical when a company like Slack cannot find the time and resources to make native clients. I’m so #%^*ing tired of it taking three Mississippis to show a channel I click on. But on the whole, I don’t think the armchair critics truly appreciate how Electron reduces the cost by at least an order of magnitude. It’s a brilliant tool for shipping early and fast. My only criticism with these start-up use cases…

> I’m so #%^*ing tired of it taking three Mississippis to show a channel I click on.

I can guarantee you whatever is causing Slack to take 3 seconds to load a channel has nothing to do with it being built on Electron and, all else being equal, would probably have the same problem if it was built as a native app.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#346

What I don't get about the rant is why it matters what the "modern" way is. It's not like any of the old tools have disappeared right? If you don't like Electron/NW, nobody's stopping you from building native apps with Qt, GTK, or you can just draw your own UI raw! If you don't like frameworks with their own templating systems, maybe don't use them? I don't like them either! and yet rather than complain I just don't…

As a developer, that is correct. As the end user of those "native" web-repackaged apps, the experience is just subpar. Give me back my native widgets and consistent UX.

You can have them back! Just use old versions of your apps, or old apps.

But you won’t because deep down you know that those “web repackaged” apps are actually better than old GTK apps. More features, nicer UI, etc.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, this isn't the first time in history that quality and performance got thrown under the bus for the sake of cost. When developer salaries are your highest cost, and you have to make more and more money, eventually everything will get (and has gotten) sacrificed at the altar of "developer cost". Historically, commercial software development has never been the place for perfectionist "software craftsmanship". If…

It's not (just) about money or profits. As a solo web dev, building for desktop with electron is faster. It saves me time, the most valuable resource. How I choose to spend that extra time - on more features or on vacation - is up to me. I don't want to spend it on learning yet another way (or several) to build UIs and apps, when I already know enough to make a good enough product for my goals. It would be great if E…

Didn't Microsoft get its hand slapped for trying to integrate the web-compatible aspect into its OS?

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#348

The author is very on-point about reinventing the same things over and over again, sometimes with even less functionality than their predecessors, and also consuming more resources while doing it. Seeing how far the demoscene has taken the C64 and ZX, I wonder if we'd see some sort of resurgence in skill if there was some sort of mandate on maximum hardware requirements, e.g. something like a 1GHz Pentium III with 25…

You used one bad app so there is a general decline ?

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#350

I feel comfortable with asserting that the author has never worked on a complex web application. This web-dev hate borders on pathological: this is a guy that seems to specialize in Unix/Linux tooling, doesn't have a single tutorial on web app development [1], and yet has an intense hatred towards a space that he barely understands. These types of arguments are incredibly embarrassing to read, not only because they b…

I seem to notice this particularly often with a subset of developers. People who have a very strong "who moved my cheese" mindset. They are used to doing things a certain way. An approach that is simple to understand, but takes a very long time to get anything done. Ie, writing vanilla HTML without any frameworks. Besides, they aren't the ones paying for a team of developers, so they don't really see a downside in spending 1 month to do something that could have been done in a week.

And then all of a sudden, everything starts changing. Nobody wants to hire a vanilla JS/HTML developer anymore, they want react developers. And these react kiddies are able to put together a webapp that looks so much nicer, has more functionality, and they are able to do it in less time.

They decide to try learning react, but find themselves with a tough problem they haven't dealt with in a while - being outside their comfort zone. They are so used to doing things a certain way. They know exactly how to do it. They can do it blindfolded. And all of a sudden, they find themselves having to change everything up. Overnight, they go from feeling like experts to feeling like novices. And they hate it.

If they pushed through it, they would eventually gain mastery over it and learn to evaluate this new technology fairly on its merits. But they never do master this new technology. Feeling like a newbie is too psychologically painful. But they also recognize how much of a disadvantage they are at by not riding this wave that is taking over the industry. And so, rather than expressing indifference or acknowledging personal taste, they lash out with tremendous resentment and anger.

> No, I will not be polite and call it something else because it is truly sheer stupidity. In the so-called modern day it's like everyone - except a few - has dropped their brain on the floor. Has everyone except the "unix greybeards" gone mad!?

I get it. Change is scary. But it gets even scarier when you try to resist it instead of embracing it.

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