Live data from Hacker News

The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

staceyoniot.com

11–20 of 235 posts

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#11
post #5

The only real practical example is fall detection, what's the real purpose of this?

Mass surveillance. Only through warrants, of course.

Or, you know, if a cop wants to stalk their ex-gf, or an isp tech support nerd wants to stalk a customer. Or any script kiddie or petty criminal can get hold of your wifi password or drop his own AP in your house.

Nothing to see here. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#13
post #10
post #5

The only real practical example is fall detection, what's the real purpose of this?

I worked briefly for a company working on WiFi sensing, and besides fall detection, nobody could give a compelling use case. When pressed to come up with a motivating vision, the big idea was lights turning on automatically when you enter a room. I guess? Like a lot of R&D, it seemed a solution in search of a problem.

Yeah seemed like a replacement for other motion sensing... but then how localized can this actually be?

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#15
Some WiFi systems [1] [2] already offer sensing capabilities for home security.

[1]: https://www.linksys.com/us/support-article?articleNum=317804

[2]: https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20171114005542/en/Nex...

I agree with other comments that question the ratio of benefit vs. risk. But I’m an old fogey who feels similarly about other “smart” home devices.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#16
How much additional value does this provide vs the addition of ToF information in beacons that already exists?

This seems primarily about providing tracking capabilities to operators whereas ToF provides tracking to the people who are actually trying to do positioning. The privacy implications are worrying.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#17

Some WiFi systems [1] [2] already offer sensing capabilities for home security. [1]: https://www.linksys.com/us/support-article?articleNum=317804 [2]: https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20171114005542/en/Nex... I agree with other comments that question the ratio of benefit vs. risk. But I’m an old fogey who feels similarly about other “smart” home devices.

Also possible with open firmware on low-cost ESP32 devices, https://wrlab.github.io/Wi-ESP/ & https://github.com/StevenMHernandez/ESP32-CSI-Tool

But there's a big difference in custom firmware used in a few products and IEEE standardization in every new WiFi access point.

We need more funding for countermeasures, https://ans.unibs.it/projects/csi-murder/

> Imagine that someone wants to illegally track the position of a person inside a laboratory, for instance to measure how much time is spent doing different activities at different desks, as depicted in the upper picture. How much effective can this attack be? ... With CSI-MURDER, the localization becomes impossible because results will seem random, thus preserving the person privacy without destroying Wi-Fi communications.

400+ (!) papers on wireless sensing, over the last decade https://dhalperi.github.io/linux-80211n-csitool/ & https://groups.csail.mit.edu/netmit/sFFT/soda_paper.pdf & https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/103715

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#19
post #4

Who is actually asking for this? It can't be for consumers just wanting to use the internet right? I don't get it.

It's most probably meant for opportunistic sensing in industrial environments, where it might become quite useful. It's not something you're going to use at home.

However, it could be something employers would want to use when you are working remotely. Unfortunately.

Re: The next big Wi-Fi standard is for sensing, not communication (2021)

#20
post #10
post #5

The only real practical example is fall detection, what's the real purpose of this?

I worked briefly for a company working on WiFi sensing, and besides fall detection, nobody could give a compelling use case. When pressed to come up with a motivating vision, the big idea was lights turning on automatically when you enter a room. I guess? Like a lot of R&D, it seemed a solution in search of a problem.

They've been making that tech for years, every office and school classroom I've been to in the last 10 years has that now. This is just another stupid shot in the dark. Maybe someday someone will actually find a useful purpose. We are limited by what we can't even imagine so there's always hope but until then, I'll let those with deep pockets spend the energy trying to find a good use for it.
Post reply on HN