Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ii run Slack outside of a tab and in its app format because it's easier to navigate to using keyboard shortcuts and OS level features. That may not be enough for you, but it's plenty reason for me, and I imagine many others.
Slack in browser tab user here. Got sick of the app and how slow it was pretty fast. It's just not worth it.
Is the madness ever going to end?
141–150 of 629 posts
Re: Is the madness ever going to end?
#142> The entry barrier to programming needs to [be] high! I strongly disagree with this sentiment. I think the author's view that frameworks like Electron offer "no value over a native desktop application what so ever - well, perhaps with the only exception that now a 2 year old baby can make something shiny that you can click on with your mouse." is missing the point that a "2-year-old baby" making something shiny you…
Re: Is the madness ever going to end?
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
All of them are still true, except for the last one (for nearly all use cases).
Java got its slow reputation mainly because any early encounter with a Java applet would proudly display the Java logo and then cause your computer and disk to thrash for 30 seconds. Then Java developers heard this, confused it for "Java executes slowly" and so they never fixed it, until Java applets just became obsolete.
"Amazing new IDE has just come out! Good luck running it!"
Also local Swing apps were memory hogs compared for the time. 20MB was a lot on a machine that had 256 or 512MB in total.
Re: Is the madness ever going to end?
#144Re: Is the madness ever going to end?
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The argument for Electron and React Native isn't "it's modern", it's "it's much cheaper". Expecations have changed. It is 2004, your company needs a simple CRUD app so your employees can work with some structured data in a DB somewhere, let's say so sales can check inventory levels in an existing database. A single developer can start up a Winforms project and throw something together in a matter of days to weeks.…
you're not wrong, but react/electron aren't the same ballpark as winform, flutter or xamarin forms are.
And internal websites are a direct competitor to Winforms.
Every year someone telling me Xamarine forms is better now, but every year someone tells me that they tried Xamarine forms the year prior and it still wasn't any good. My one experience with Xamarine forms was watching 3 apps teams (WinPhone, Android, and iOS) all struggle to write an app. Given that it took 3 teams, and it was a large effort, I wasn't impressed, but this was 6 or so years ago. I hope things have improved since then!
Fun fact, for awhile Silverlight was huge in the internal website world, and Microsoft could have easily had another decade of lock-in going on, but then MS killed Silverlight due to internal politics, and even the most loyal MS customers saw the writing on the wall and redirected their internal development efforts elsewhere.
90s Microsoft would never have abandoned a technology stack that had wide spread internal corporate adoption. :/
Re: Is the madness ever going to end?
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
Usually they are websites. That's kinda the whole point... Spotify's desktop app is the same as open.spotify.com, Discord's is the same as discord.com, VS Code's is the same as vscode.dev, Slack is the same as.. something. But yeah, instead of those companies all needing 5 separate engineering teams (Web, Mac, Windows, iOS, Android, and you're joking if you think they'll make a Linux native app), they just make a web…
I'm kinda hopeful that Maui+Blazor will eventually let us have our cake and eat it too - instead of "everything is web", do "everything is a desktop-style gui framework" including the web. Although AFAIK they don't even have a web renderer on the horizon right now - purely desktop+mobile. Of course, there will be angry PMs and designers that will be upset that their website looks like it was spat out of a desktop GUI…
Re: Is the madness ever going to end?
#147This article reminds me of when assembly programmers were ranting how stupid it is to use the bloated C language to create apps when assembly is perfectly fine for that, and how it's all driven by lazy programmers who don't want to learn how to write efficient code.
Today every computer has many billions of transistors.
Re: Is the madness ever going to end?
#148Re: Is the madness ever going to end?
#149I feel comfortable with asserting that the author has never worked on a complex web application. This web-dev hate borders on pathological: this is a guy that seems to specialize in Unix/Linux tooling, doesn't have a single tutorial on web app development [1], and yet has an intense hatred towards a space that he barely understands. These types of arguments are incredibly embarrassing to read, not only because they b…
Re: Is the madness ever going to end?
#150> Programming is engineering Is it? Genuine question that I've been asking myself for the past several years: In what senses is software engineering actually an engineering discipline? If you make a project trade-off for the sake of code maintainability, is that based on empirically tested knowledge or following a design pattern guided by an artisan's intuition about how code will be interpreted?
In terms of definition, software development ticks all the boxes - depending on who you ask.
Yet every way you look at it, something just doesn't feel right. Sure, there's best practices, models, a strong mathematical foundation, but on the other hand there's way too much freedom.
By "freedom" I strictly mean lack of limitations. While the laws of physics dictate what can and can't be done in traditional engineering disciplines, the same cannot be said about software.
A good design can be quantified, tested, and improved based on hard data (and eventual failure). A good program, however, is super hard to qualify. What even is "good maintainability" in terms of software? Is it a bunch of metrics like cyclomatic complexity, Halstead volume, and lines of code haphazardly cobbled together to form an arbitrary index value?
With traditional engineering you have material properties like tensile strength that you can match against requirements and safety margins. What's the equivalent of tensile strength of a software product and can we measure it?
For decades people in scientific computing have relied on Fortran programs that defy any modern notion of maintainability. The subroutines and "drivers" are limited to 6-character names and functions with >25 arguments are not uncommon.
Yet they still work, are still used and stood the test of time despite archaic properties [0], which require users to memorise large tables of codes for data types and routine names.
I also feel that despite these limitations, libraries like LAPACK are more readable and maintainable than modern C++ monstrosities like this [1].