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Lies We Tell Kids

paulgraham.com

401–410 of 433 posts

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#401

I can think of another reason for lying to kids: because everybody else does, and if your kid doesn't play along there are consequences. I am reminded of Roman Polanski, who was Jewish but was raised Catholic at an early age to protect him from the Nazis. He ended up becoming an actual Catholic, because you can't tell a four year old that he's really a Jew, but has to pretend to be a Catholic, because they're incapab…

Given that we don't have to worry about Auschwitz, We also don't have to lie to our kids to teach them about taboos.

If you don't think there's anything wrong with swearing, you don't have to say "You can't swear because it's wrong." You can say, truthfully, that there are certain words grownups are allowed to use that children aren't. You can say "You are not allowed to say that because if you accidentally say it at a friend's house, his parents won't want you coming over to play anymore." That's very likely true. You may be leaving some things out -- reasons that you don't fully understand and therefore don't know how to explain to a small child -- but you don't have to actually tell any lies.

You don't have to believe in religion to teach your children that you respect other peoples' beliefs, and don't try to correct their religious beliefs when you don't agree with them. Of course, if you actually think they're stupid for having those beliefs, then you will have to lie by omission to help their social life. I haven't told my children any more than they asked about my beliefs, so it took until my daughters were about 10 until they realized I don't believe in God at all, but I didn't lie or pretend to believe something I don't, either. They understood from an early age that different people believe different things for a lot of reasons and it's only polite to respect that.

If your kid is curious enough to ask questions that can't be answered without explaining the mechanics of sex, you can also teach him that we don't really talk openly about sex in polite conversation, and that other kids might have parents that don't want them to know about it yet. And remind them that it's important to them socially that they don't get in trouble with their friends' parents.

You can say that George Washington Carver's achievements were not so much scientific as social (and you don't entirely understand why they're learning about him science class), without saying that no black scientists are worthy.

This is the approach I've taken, and it's worked pretty well so far. We live in a very "Christian" suburb, and so far my kids haven't been kicked out of any homes for being inappropriate, nor have any of their parents come to me with concerns about such things. (I have 16 year old daughters and a 6 year old son.)

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#402
post #22

Does it count as a 'lie' if it is believed by the parent? The reason that parents don't want kids to swear is because they genuinely believe that it is wrong for some reason. The don't know the reason themselves, and so break the rule and become hypocrites, but they still believe that it is wrong and want their children to do better than they did. With regard to group identity (and religion,) most parents actually ad…

I don't know that I've ever read a really good account of the hows and whys of swearing. It seems to me the idea that we're mistaken that swear words are taboo completely misses the fact that we defined these words as taboo to start with. I think restricting children from swearing is in part to give more power to swear words, because as adults we find it useful to have these powerful words. Teaching children that swe…

Steven Pinker does a pretty admirable job of running down some ideas on swearing:

http://www.tnr.com/currentissue/story.html?id=246c0071-a9cd-...

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#403
post #144
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it count as a 'lie' if it is believed by the parent? There are senses of the word that include that, but I meant mostly things parents say knowing they're false, or at least that they'd admit were false if questioned.

Thanks for the clarification. It seems to me then, that some of the situations that you describe are more often not lies but situations where parent actually believes it himself.

But there's certainly also the possibility that the parent thinks he believes it, although all of his actions and other beliefs reveal that he doesn't believe it.

Daniel Dennett has addressed this well. No one debates the existence of Mt. Everest, and nobody has to assert that they believe in it. To identify yourself as someone who believes in something, there must be some question as to whether or not you would. People who say they believe in something which is at the core of their group identity, and for which there is no strong evidence, are rather obviously choosing not to question those beliefs the way they would question any other belief -- including the very similar beliefs of other people's religions.

So the fact that the parent "believes" in holy reincarnation or holy levitation or holy mindreading doesn't necessarily mean that he is being honest when he tries to raise his kid to believe in such things. Do they really believe those things to be real the same way they believe Mt. Everest to be real? If not -- if there is any hiccup to his belief -- then he is lying to his kid as well as himself.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#404
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As my father once said: “they can make you go to school but they can’t make you do anything there.” Lying to your kids is common but optional . At 28 I can't think of a single time my father ever lied to me and as far as I can tell he never lied to my 10 year younger sister. Granted plenty of other people lied to me, but he had no problem pointing out that religion was silly, drugs where fun and dangerous, and confor…

Well, he told you a lie: that religion was silly. Religion can or cant't be the truth. Tell the kid god exits and you are lying(you don't know it) Tell him the contrary and you are lying(you don't know it). Don't confuse the fact that both of you agree in something(which is normal between parents and son) with the fact this is the truth.

No, he didn't tell a lie. Religion is silly.

You don't have to "know" something is false to know if it's silly. Do I have a singing purple leprechaun on my desk? Well, think before you answer, Skepticism-Is-As-Bad-As-Faith; after all, you don't know whether or not I do!

So take a step back from your false equivalency and use the same common sense on this that you use every day in every other aspect of your life. If someone comes up to you with supernatural claims, every ounce of common sense and experience you possess should tell you that this person is probably saying something silly. And you shouldn't change your mind unless they actually manage to produce the kind of evidence that would change your mind if you were, say, sitting on a jury and contemplating a far-fetched alibi.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#405
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When something is falsifiable, that means it is suitable for examination by science. When something is not falsifiable it should be considered false, in most contexts.

"When something is not falsifiable it should be considered false, in most contexts." Is the above sentence falsifiable? How do you examine the "should be" question with science? If it is not falsifiable, should it be considered false, or is it an exception? How do you pick exceptions? My two assertions about your sentence: (1) It is not falsifiable. (2) You consider it very useful.

"Grandma went to heaven" is a statement of fact about a very specific matter that is either true or false.

The person uttering it has not seen, heard, smelled, or touched a single piece of evidence to verify this supposed fact.

Indeed, they're saying it either because they're sincerely repeating a myth they've heard since they were credulous children, because they want to mollify a grieving child's anguish, or both.

If you make a claim about the physical location of a human being, yet you have absolutely no evidence to bolster your claim, then you're making a claim that is not falsifiable and should be considered false.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#406
post #307
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Grandma went to heaven" is not falsifiable. I'd prefer keeping this discussion focused on falsifiable lies. Let those of us who believe in the resurrection of Jesus, the coming of the semantic web, or other supernatural phenomena believe what we want to believe.

"Grandma went to heaven" may be a kind of lie, it depends on the context. If a priest says to me (a 36 yo adult) that "Grandma went to heaven" it clearly is not a lie. I know that the priest is speaking from faith, and I am able to evaluate the truthfulness of his statement in context. In this case, it's implied that the statement means "I have deep religious faith that grandma is in heaven." This doesn't need to be…

Welcome to the mirror world, where a lie isn't a lie if you put the word "faith" in front of it! Is this kinda like "Simon Says"? Up is down -- oops, matter of faith, so I'm okay! Burning heretics is good for the human race -- oh, wait, I actually mean that one. Sorry, Galileo...

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#407
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you disagree with, and why? Dissent is fun to read about.

I sense that some of the disagreements that I have with Paul Graham are deeply fundamental and have to do with the fabric and meaning of our existence. First of all, I'm a religious person. This I have seen immediately qualifies me for ridicule from some on a forum such as this, as believing in God is seen as the logical equivalent to believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. If you think I am totally deluded be…

"...believing in God is seen as the logical equivalent to believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. If you think I am totally deluded because of my beliefs, I would ask that you at least show respect for the fact that I am devoted to them and value them sincerely."

Do you not see the irony here? Would you be making this heartfelt plea for us to respect your beliefs if you did believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?

Of course not -- because a belief doesn't deserve "respect", no matter sincerely its followers may value it. A belief deserves either support or skepticism.

The adherents of every belief, however, deserve respect. As do you. Part of that respect involves an honest description of how unlikely your beliefs are to be grounded in truth.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#408
What about Santa Claus? I keep thinking of this issue these days, how much it used to hurt me when I started understanding that there was no Santa Claus. I keep wondering if I, in the future, should tell my kids the truth right away about the whole Santa Claus thing.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#410
Swearing is nothing. And drugs they will do (and we pray they only dabble). Sex is different in that (IMO) you ante up something sacred (yourself).
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