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Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

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Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#371

Post by burkaman »

bravo22 wrote: post #367
burkaman wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do what the shareholders want They haven't even asked what the shareholders want. They don't think they need to, because they believe that everyone will naturally share their belief that money is their highest priority.

Management doesn't ask shareholders for approval on every decision. They have a duty to act in the best interest of the shareholder. Generally that means not having reduced revenue. This is what most people accept. If shareholders want them to do something different they can let them know.

> Generally that means not having reduced revenue.

I think this is the fundamental disagreement we have, and it's probably too big of a conversation for a comment thread. In my philosophy of determining "best interest", revenue is an important consideration, but not the only one and not the most important one. There is certainly no legal duty to increase revenue or stock price or anything like that.

Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#372

Post by network2592 »

vmception wrote: post #360
network2592 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The corporation and the management have no actual opinion and I don't require they do. You presumably want capable management as leadership of a corporation. The issue is whether Intel really needed to apologize. Most chips are not manufactured in China. Foreign access to Chinese market is heavily restricted by CCP. There does not seem to be much to gain from apologizing for calling out slave concentration camps. W…

That's an interesting point, I think it comes down to nobody knowing what contractors in their extended supply chain do. This also moves Intel's problem to their first shareholder letter. Basically they should have never said it if it didn't apply to them. Then they chose to apologize to maintain standing in China for who knows what reason. Whats clear to me is that they realize it is basically inconsequential in the…

You need to factor in time horizons. Things can be inconsequential for a while and then become very consequential.

Yes, in the short term, there are consequences in China for Intel in terms of speaking out against slave concentration camps. Medium and long term, CCP will champion a national chip that will replace Intel. No amount of CCP praising or glossing over slave concentration camps will prevent this outcome for Intel.

So choosing to bend the knee for CCP will not net a gain in a longer time horizon. And with the rise of ARM, Intel is no longer the only chip on the block.

The Intel leadership may think things are inconsequential outside of China. But, this might push them to not consider alternative supply chains. With increasing trade wars, and the CCP looking to be very aggressive with trade policies as a foreign policy instrument, it is probably a good idea to divest from China supply chains.

Yet, Intel seems to really value their China supply chain. So it is reasonable to expect them to face the adverse consequences in the future. This can be very swift just like the sidelining of Jack Ma and AliBaba as well other Chinese tech giants.

In other words, just because you do not see the consequences now, it does not mean that there will not be heavy consequences later. You can have some basic human empathy for Uyghurs in slave concentration camps. Or you can evaluate the competence of Intel leadership in a cold manner. Either way, things seem to point to a sell order for Intel stock if you trade.

Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#373

Post by network2592 »

tharne wrote: post #139

I don't know why people keep expressing surprise at things like this. Contrary to what the U.S. Supreme Court would have you believe, corporations are not people and do not have morals or values. They are organizations that seek to maximize profit and grow. Any values a corporation projects are merely reflections of whatever the dominant moral force is in a given time and place. American corporations in the U.S. in 2…

Doing the right thing morally and doing the right thing for business are not mutually exclusive. Actually, this case is a good example.

Please see these comments [0]. But essentially, Intel is in a medium and long term losing position in CCP China regardless of whether it glosses over slave concentration camps. It seems to have chosen to value CCP China supply chains. It will face a capricious CCP that will disrupt those supply chains sooner or later. It will face the creation of a CCP China national chip champion with a monopoly on local sales.

This will be bad for business. It is of course still bad to play semantic public relations games with slave concentration camps.

Had it maintained a moral position against Xinjiang slave concentration camps, it would have been pushed to look for alternative supply chains. This in turn would have put Intel in a better position to whether storms created by CCP when using trade policies as foreign policy instruments.

Good business and some basic moral decency go together. It is so sad for humanity to believe otherwise.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29897071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29897791

Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#374

Post by thatfunkymunki »

radmuzom wrote: post #223
tlear wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silica is not an issue. Intel executives getting kidnapped(err arrested for illegal blah blah), local managers disappearing, sudden "corruption" investigations etc. There are 2 choices, clear out everything and everyone associated with Intel out of PRC or comply.

Funny how China doing something are always in the future tense. Whereas the ones who have committed the atrocity of actually illegally detaining an executive by putting pressure on a friendly country is the USA.

ah yes, equating the detention of a rich person in a mansion with an industrial scale genocide operation.

Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#375

Post by leadingthenet »

trasz wrote: post #361
ILMostro7 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I'd guess they are comparable, but one difference is that US state propaganda is spread around the whole world, while the Chinese one stays in China. The mere fact that Americans believe Chinese somehow cannot criticize their country's flaws - despite how obviously idiotic this belief would be - shows that. (Or the belief that China is somehow trying to eradicate Winnie the Pooh, despite Chinese Disneyworld being a t…

Do we live in an alternate reality where open state censorship of media and the Great Firewall are somehow not a thing in China any more?

Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#376

Post by vorpalhex »

trasz wrote: post #368
vorpalhex wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have satellite photos, eye witness testimony and even the Chinese government admits the facilities are there but has some nonsense about the people there choosing to be in a barbed wire facility with armed guards. Are you really suggesting keeping criminals who have had a trial and been found guilty by a jury of their peers is at all the same as a genocidal racial based campaign to remove an ethnic minority? [1] -…

I'm sorry, but your state media lied to you again: nobody is claiming those institutions don't exist. They do exist - and they are mostly similar to western youth correctional facilities. (Except in China you can't get imprisoned there simply because you wealthy parents wish so - differently from the US, where the "troubled teen camps" are a proper industry.)

Sure, every country on earth keeps their ethnic minorities in a barbed wire facility where they can't leave and are kept under watch by armed guards. Yes, very normal. Nothing to see here. Ignore the DOZENS of facilities with tens of thousands of inmates who have stories of forced sterilization.

Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#377

Post by trasz »

vorpalhex wrote: post #376
trasz wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but your state media lied to you again: nobody is claiming those institutions don't exist. They do exist - and they are mostly similar to western youth correctional facilities. (Except in China you can't get imprisoned there simply because you wealthy parents wish so - differently from the US, where the "troubled teen camps" are a proper industry.)

Sure, every country on earth keeps their ethnic minorities in a barbed wire facility where they can't leave and are kept under watch by armed guards. Yes, very normal. Nothing to see here. Ignore the DOZENS of facilities with tens of thousands of inmates who have stories of forced sterilization.

This description matches American prisons pretty well. Of course US puts many more people there.

Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#378

Post by trasz »

leadingthenet wrote: post #375
trasz wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess they are comparable, but one difference is that US state propaganda is spread around the whole world, while the Chinese one stays in China. The mere fact that Americans believe Chinese somehow cannot criticize their country's flaws - despite how obviously idiotic this belief would be - shows that. (Or the belief that China is somehow trying to eradicate Winnie the Pooh, despite Chinese Disneyworld being a t…

Do we live in an alternate reality where open state censorship of media and the Great Firewall are somehow not a thing in China any more?

Of course it is a thing, same as corporate censorship in the West. It’s just that Chinese don’t try to pretend it’s not the case.

Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#379

Post by trasz »

network2592 wrote: post #364
1024core wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You most likely don't care, but if you want to be educated, here are some Vice documentaries: https://www.vice.com/en/topic/uighur

Parent comment may not care. But just wanted to thank you for the link. Had just seen one documentary piece on VICE. I was not aware of these other pieces.

No post body was provided.

Re: Intel removes Xinjiang references from shareholder letter

#380

Post by network2592 »

trasz wrote: post #379
network2592 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent comment may not care. But just wanted to thank you for the link. Had just seen one documentary piece on VICE. I was not aware of these other pieces.

Quoted post unavailable.

My comment is at the top of this thread. So naturally, I have made a genuine effort to reply to replies.

You constantly try to debase the conversation. Someone even reposted your comments to highlight how disingenuous your comments are [0]. Others have repeatedly pointed out how your comments have nothing to do with the current subject matter [1] or are simply regurgitating CCP talking points [2].

Clearly, engaging with your comments is not constructive. You are not interested in a genuine conversation. You attempt to deflate a potentially constructive conversation thread at every turn and trigger a flame war.

But it is a testament to Hacker News that by and large, the community has recognized your comments and efforts to derail the conversation for what they are.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29894558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29893838 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29896092 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29893832

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